True Black Powder vs Pyrodex

Whiteleather

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Joined
Apr 19, 2019
A discussion under the Burnside thread is getting off track.

The post was about the perils of using Pyrodex. I am a fan, but at least two others are adamantly against it.

So I have started a test. Admittedly a limited test, but a test nonetheless.

This photo is of the test plate with the two cleaning products last to touch my bore. I use Windex to soak the bore right at the range and give it a little scrub. At home I clean with the TCS product, then lightly oil with Ballistol. The plate surface has these two products on it:

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The powders used are 40 grains each of new Pyrodex, old Pyrodex, and Goex Black powder in the following positions:

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Then I fired up all three test spots:


And finally the test plate with burns and date. I will up date this photo set for a week, then clean the plate and observe the results:

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I don't think I am wrong, but am willing to put in the effort to discover it first hand.

If nothing happens to the plate, I will do 4 more burns for a total of 5 "shots" and leave it for a week again.
 
A discussion under the Burnside thread is getting off track.

The post was about the perils of using Pyrodex. I am a fan, but at least two others are adamantly against it.

So I have started a test. Admittedly a limited test, but a test nonetheless.

This photo is of the test plate with the two cleaning products last to touch my bore. I use Windex to soak the bore right at the range and give it a little scrub. At home I clean with the TCS product, then lightly oil with Ballistol. The plate surface has these two products on it:

View attachment 306143

The powders used are 40 grains each of new Pyrodex, old Pyrodex, and Goex Black powder in the following positions:

View attachment 306144

Then I fired up all three test spots:


And finally the test plate with burns and date. I will up date this photo set for a week, then clean the plate and observe the results:

View attachment 306145

I don't think I am wrong, but am willing to put in the effort to discover it first hand.

If nothing happens to the plate, I will do 4 more burns for a total of 5 "shots" and leave it for a week again.
I don't know how to judge the design of your experiment, but it seems like you will need many repeated burns to better simulate long-term shooting with one product or the other. Would you consider observing and testing weekly or monthly for several months
 
I don't know how to judge the design of your experiment, but it seems like you will need many repeated burns to better simulate long-term shooting with one product or the other. Would you consider observing and testing weekly or monthly for several months

As I said, it is limited. I have limited supplies of Goex, and would rather not use it all up chasing an answer I already know. I may do a series of 5 shots (adding gun cotton to the mix!), but that would be the extent of the burns.

If acids in Pyrodex are so different and dangerous compared to true black we should see effects instantly. I have a bat turd shaped spot of missing blue on a rifle barrel. A bat shat and hit the barrel. The following day the bluing was gone in that spot. I would expect that burnt powder is at least as acidic as bat poo.

I bet that too many Pyrodex users think that they don't have to clean their guns as well as if using true black. Smokeless powder users leave rifles dirty for years (.22 users and shotgunners are the worst) with seemingly no ill effects to the bore. If they think that Pyrodex is a modern powder they may leave that crud in there as well.

Embarrassed to admit that they don't clean their guns...they blame the damage on Pyrodex.
 
I have been remiss on posting photos. No visible changes to my eyes, but here they are anyhow.

The Goex burned noticeably faster than the Pyrodex which blew its pattern out a bit. Also note the yellowish ring around the Pyrodex burns. I don't think that is rust, but simply a concentration of burn since Pyrodex was less reactive. Polishing the plate will tell.

I will add subsequent pics to this posting.

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101_9943.JPG
 
Part of the experiment would also be to see if the fouling from Pyrodex has an abrasive quality to it. Another element missing is the lube. Just as about any petrochemical based lube is a nogo with black powder, I'd venture to guess the chemical make up of some traditional black powder lubes don't play well with Pyrodex.
 
Never encourage anyone to use Pyrodex in reenacting! It's just not stuff you want to use in blanks for reenacting!:nah disagree:

Kevin Dally
 
As I said, it is limited. I have limited supplies of Goex, and would rather not use it all up chasing an answer I already know. I may do a series of 5 shots (adding gun cotton to the mix!), but that would be the extent of the burns.

If acids in Pyrodex are so different and dangerous compared to true black we should see effects instantly. I have a bat turd shaped spot of missing blue on a rifle barrel. A bat shat and hit the barrel. The following day the bluing was gone in that spot. I would expect that burnt powder is at least as acidic as bat poo.

I bet that too many Pyrodex users think that they don't have to clean their guns as well as if using true black. Smokeless powder users leave rifles dirty for years (.22 users and shotgunners are the worst) with seemingly no ill effects to the bore. If they think that Pyrodex is a modern powder they may leave that crud in there as well.

Embarrassed to admit that they don't clean their guns...they blame the damage on Pyrodex.
It seems to me that you are making a lot of assumptions in this particular post--especially with regard to gun cleaning. I am very well acquainted with a person who commented on Pyrodex in the other thread. We shoot contemporary arms together very often. I assure you he takes meticulous care of his firearms, as I do mine. Another assumption is that you already know how your experiment will turn out. I think the results will be inconclusive. You think they will prove what you "already know." I am honestly not trying to beat you up here, but if you're performing an experiment, you can't start with the answer and arrive at the question, unless you are willing to disprove your answer.

I should add that I don't personally shoot any black powder or Pyrodex. I am just following along with your experiment. These comments are somewhat critical, but are not meant poorly. They are all offered in helpful spirit and friendship.
 
I should add that I don't personally shoot any black powder or Pyrodex.

Jeesh! Then with all due respect...why are you in this thread? It is literally titled: "True Black Powder vs Pyrodex".

I have shot both powders for decades. That is why I find it astonishing that someone would choose to run down one or another for reasons other than availability or legal entanglements.

I don't know how the experiment will turn out (because the plate is left uncleaned), but I have a good idea. I know firsthand that proper cleaning techniques for both powders will protect bores from both powders, while improper cleaning techniques will produce damage regardless of what you run down the bore. The plate test is just me putting aside proper cleaning to see if damage occurs more greatly with Pyrodex than with true black under the worst possible condition: lack of cleaning and left in outside air.

Please keep in mind that I shoot both powders without reservations about safety or corrosion. I don't choose one over the other for those reasons. This thread is grown from user posts who adamantly tell other readers NEVER to use Pyrodex. That is just silly.

I use Pyrodex in my loadings info on forums such as these simply because everyone can get Pyrodex. Not everyone can get true black powder.
 
Part of the experiment would also be to see if the fouling from Pyrodex has an abrasive quality to it. Another element missing is the lube. Just as about any petrochemical based lube is a nogo with black powder, I'd venture to guess the chemical make up of some traditional black powder lubes don't play well with Pyrodex.

Not concerned about abrasive quality. The criticism of Pyrodex was its acidic nature.

As for lubes...I am not adding them to the mix because the comment was about powder and acidity. There was no caveat for lubes. For the record I use 'BoreButter' on my bullets.

If Pyrodex gets a NEVER vote from some users I highly doubt that the chemistry of powder combustion is coupled with secondary reactants of lube.
 
Jeesh! Then with all due respect...why are you in this thread? It is literally titled: "True Black Powder vs Pyrodex".
Because it seemed interesting to me. I hope it continues to be so. That's why I am following along. I was not criticizing you for shooting Pyrodex. I was trying to help you with the design of your experiment. But you have stated in your post #4 that there's no point in chasing down an answer that you already know. That is a flawed starting point for an experiment that will go nowhere in your own estimation. Your results will not prove anything to anyone except you. Again, my criticism is not snark. I'm trying to persuade you to open your mind to the possibilities of better-designed experiment. Give it a genuine trial and let it prove you correct...or not. But give it a genuine trial. Either way, the results could be VERY informative to other shooters.
 
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It does not work in blank loads...I've seen it's results, it's embarrassing to the shooter, and those around them!

Kevin Dally
It needs compression for ignition, so without a ball, it won't fire. I have fired blanks made from American Pioneer powder, which is a citrus based powder substitute. It fires just fine in blanks from a percussion lock, but performs poorly as priming powder, so it firing it from a flintlock is problematic. (Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.)
 
FWIW Pyrodex is really not intended for blanks in either percussion or flintlocks. It needs to be compressed to work properly and that usually means live rounds. With blanks it tends to "floof" and sputter instead of producing a healthy "BOOM" It also tends to be more corrosive although the newer stuff may have been improved. I've used it in the past for target work and it does burn a bit cleaner and that is a plus. Pyrodex is really not intended for flintlocks but it CAN be used with live rounds if you drop a small charge of black powder down bore first. This acts like a "booster" to get the ball rolling. Then add your load of Pyrodex. Prime with black powder and you are set. In caplocks this is not necessary although a hotter cap might be in order. (The German ones are great) I'll stay with the Holy Black thank you.
 
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