Tift construction influence on Diamond Hull ICs?

georgew

First Sergeant
Joined
Oct 1, 2010
Location
southern california
It occurs to me that the Tift's proposal for very simplified construction techniques, particularly hull fabrication may have put J.L. Porter to thinking. If so, I believe it may have affected his Diamond Hull ironclad design. I suspect that the crude hydrodynamic layout of the Tift design may have influenced him to introduce a better hull form while retaining the simplified construction techniques of the Tift proposal. I've also seen an artist's conception of the fabrication of the Albemarle's hull which seems to incorporate the husky "shell" approach of the Tifts then planked over longitudinally. If this is true then it in part explains just why that boat proved so tough in practice (and probably why she drew more water than intended).
 
I have grave doubts about the influence of the "no curves" seagoing designs on anything Porter did. After the initial plan He drew up at Mallory's instruction Porter had nothing further to do with the ship, a fact he complained about for a long time. His contribution was to add the built on knuckle and slope the casemate sides (totally unnecessarily in my view). He left the hull shape as it was.
Porter's "diamond " hull concept was intended for riverine warfare. CSS Albemarle was overweight but not as much as CSS Neuse was, so much so that she never got her deck or knuckle armour.
 
I did not find the Tift concept innovative but rather an expedient to labor details. Though Nelson was somewhat familiar with boat designs, I still feel their whole venture was for making do, both monetarily and professionally, and underwritten with these expenses in mind. I would be unwilling to believe the concepts for boat-building they purposed were advantageous for more experienced designers. Just my take on it. @rebelatsea, I am curious if you agree? Thanks,
Lubliner.
 
Lubliner,

The Tift brothers were amongst the first to realise that there was an acute shortage of skilled shipbuilders in the nascent South. They didn't actually invent the solid frame construction technique , as it had been used before in barges and floating platforms back into history, and it has been used since in both timber and concrete forms up to the present day. We don't know for certain and probably never will which one conceived the idea of a battery with identical ends capable of construction by ordinary woodwork joiners but I think it was Nelson Tift.
Note I did not say house carpenters - that is a wholly inaccurate phrase for which I was taken to task by the professional whose advice I sought.
In monetary terms, both Tifts put a great sum of their own money into the vessel, submitting invoices to Secretary Mallory for repayment, which was not always forthcoming as quickly or in the correct amounts as it should have been. they did not baulk even at the changes Porter and Joseph Pierce made to the original design.

More experienced naval draughtsman would, if they had accepted the construction method have altered the hull proportions to conform to the then universally accepted "wave form" shape common to virtually all sailing warships, which was eventually found by hard experience to be wrong for steam powered vessels.
 
Lubliner,

The Tift brothers were amongst the first to realise that there was an acute shortage of skilled shipbuilders in the nascent South. They didn't actually invent the solid frame construction technique , as it had been used before in barges and floating platforms back into history, and it has been used since in both timber and concrete forms up to the present day. We don't know for certain and probably never will which one conceived the idea of a battery with identical ends capable of construction by ordinary woodwork joiners but I think it was Nelson Tift.
Note I did not say house carpenters - that is a wholly inaccurate phrase for which I was taken to task by the professional whose advice I sought.
In monetary terms, both Tifts put a great sum of their own money into the vessel, submitting invoices to Secretary Mallory for repayment, which was not always forthcoming as quickly or in the correct amounts as it should have been. they did not baulk even at the changes Porter and Joseph Pierce made to the original design.

More experienced naval draughtsman would, if they had accepted the construction method have altered the hull proportions to conform to the then universally accepted "wave form" shape common to virtually all sailing warships, which was eventually found by hard experience to be wrong for steam powered vessels.
Your reply left me with one second question concerning double-ended boats that were used to navigate the Yazoo, and the bayous of the lower south. The designed purpose was to solve the problem for reversing out of a tight squeeze. These designs came about, but I cannot find much mention of their history, whether before or during the war. Neither do I find a reference yet on how the boats were put together. It almost seems they would use a rectangular mid-section and add two front bows, and I'm guessing the wheel-prop would be amid-ship.
Thank you for your first answer. I read most of the official investigation brought against Mallory for the loss of the Mississippi, and had been interested in Asa Tift's salvage operation in the Key's but cannot find anything on it. He was a member with a group of men devoted to the confederacy, and forfeited his operations early on in 1861. Their allegiance was put into question because they originated out of Pennsylvania (?) years before the war. Nelson was settled in Georgia and still maintained a profitable estate in 1861. So maybe it was Asa with the ship experience?? The ideas for using the design features where the craftsman were easier found and more numerous, all these features were investigated, though that was not the prompting and therefore was left rather open. These two brothers and the building of the Mississippi is what really grabbed my interest a year and a half ago, causing me to become a member here.
Again thanks, @rebelatsea. Possibly I shall leave this shore duty to wander back into the naval scene.
Lubliner.
 
Your reply left me with one second question concerning double-ended boats that were used to navigate the Yazoo, and the bayous of the lower south. The designed purpose was to solve the problem for reversing out of a tight squeeze. These designs came about, but I cannot find much mention of their history, whether before or during the war. Neither do I find a reference yet on how the boats were put together. It almost seems they would use a rectangular mid-section and add two front bows, and I'm guessing the wheel-prop would be amid-ship.
Thank you for your first answer. I read most of the official investigation brought against Mallory for the loss of the Mississippi, and had been interested in Asa Tift's salvage operation in the Key's but cannot find anything on it. He was a member with a group of men devoted to the confederacy, and forfeited his operations early on in 1861. Their allegiance was put into question because they originated out of Pennsylvania (?) years before the war. Nelson was settled in Georgia and still maintained a profitable estate in 1861. So maybe it was Asa with the ship experience?? The ideas for using the design features where the craftsman were easier found and more numerous, all these features were investigated, though that was not the prompting and therefore was left rather open. These two brothers and the building of the Mississippi is what really grabbed my interest a year and a half ago, causing me to become a member here.
Again thanks, @rebelatsea. Possibly I shall leave this shore duty to wander back into the naval scene.
Lubliner.
Thank you for that reminder that is was Asa Tift who had some ship experience, He is totally overshadowed by his brother in all the records. Certainly Nelson seems to be the driving force. I wonder if Asa had seen /used craft put together in "solid hull" construction as salvage barges?
 
Thank you for that reminder that is was Asa Tift who had some ship experience, He is totally overshadowed by his brother in all the records. Certainly Nelson seems to be the driving force. I wonder if Asa had seen /used craft put together in "solid hull" construction as salvage barges?
I believe Nelson was the moneyman, had capital assets, and knew Mallory before the war. He owned about 24 slaves and was propertied in Georgia. Whether these men in bondage were brought forth to New Orleans or not, IDK. But Asa was serving as a lead man traveling before, meeting on-site associations, inspecting waterfront real estate, possible supply materials and labor contracts that could be had, at least with the Mississippi. From what I remember his ideas evolved from professional scarcity and he advanced his design propositions as a credible undertaking, that were passed by a review board. Whether he understood the character of boats and barges and the principles of displacement, I would only be guessing. But he surely had resource for picking on intellects that knew, and gaining insight through advices, IMO.
Lubliner.
 
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