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The winding down of the AOC

Discussion in 'Civil War History - Secession and Politics' started by jgoodguy, Aug 29, 2011.

  1. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Not sure what the Brits called them before United Colonies, but it was not polite.
     
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  3. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    It used Owings v. Speed as a precedent. The point is that Owings v. Speed did not just vanish into all but vanished court cases.
     
  4. trice

    trice Major

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    All US law continues to exist and become precedent for what follows.

    I understand that the Oneida Case deals with similar issues and that there is controversy over Marshall's view on when the Constitution took effect, and whether it did so in whole or in part (also, for that matter, over whether or not the government of the AoC was fully legal, partially legal, or not at all legal during the transition period between the AoC and the Constitution.

    Neither of those cases deals with the status of NC or RI before they ratified, but after the 1st nine states ratified.
     
  5. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    From the AOC
    From the Treaty of Paris 1783
    It appears that the language of Treaty of Paris 1783 is derived directly from the language of the AOC.

    Please note that @Rebforever posted states not nations.
    It was my impression that the AOC was very weak, and had very little control over its States. That is not consistent with "surrendered large parts of their sovereignty to the United States in order to achieve independence. " The AOC could not muster a quorum to ratify the treaty in a timely manner or raise an army to suppress a weak insurrection.

    The AOC is more of a nation created by treaty than a consolidated nation. A weak confederation.
    True, but the topic of this thread is only concerned with the date of the end of the AOC, but a side note that the States of the AOC found lots of sovereignty unappetizing and gave it up is appropriate.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  6. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    By specifying a date the Constitution started life concurrent with the end of the AOC, Owings v. Speed is germane to this thread and deals with the status of NC or RI before they ratified.
     
  7. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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  8. OpnCoronet

    OpnCoronet Major

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    To me, the wording of this thread is particularly apt, because it describes how the AoC came Not to be. It gradually lost energy and entered a state of entropy

    In reality, it seems to me that the difference between the AoC and the Constitution, is that of form, not substance. Did not the Congress of the AoC, merely allowed the people of the United States to institute a different form of gov't than that of the AoC; which had no real effect on the fact of the states being in a Union, i.e., Each state was in a Union of states under the Constitution or the moribund AoC and, in either case, the Union was the same..



    P.S. Perhaps in Law(or is it gov'ts?) as in science, there can be more than one states of existence, which one exists at any one time seems to depend upon their application.
     
  9. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    To me a human and their romantic partner can be in a union from dating to marriage, that union is somehow different in time.
     
  10. trice

    trice Major

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    Yes. Of course, other sources you have provided on the same topic disagree with Marshall on the status of the government in the intervening period and whether or not Marshall was right in when the transition went into effect. Even speculate that there was no government of any kind in between when the 9th state ratified and when the government of the Constitution met, maybe not before the inauguration of Washington. That last one seems pretty bizarre to me, but they seem to think the Founding Fathers would have been OK with it.

    As to NC and RI, the Constitution very probably does not apply to them until they ratify. To them, there would either be no government or the AoC government during the period before they ratify. Still members of the Union (debatable, and it was debated and discussed at the time, seemingly true), but definitely not governed by the Constitution government until they ratified.

    In terms of Owings v. Speed, Marshall's decision might have been different if the property was in NC or RI. Certainly there would be another wrinkle he would have had to address.
     
  11. trice

    trice Major

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    But we are not talking about dating and a marriage.
     
  12. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    I have a reference that details questions Marshall's decision, but for the moment I will observe where questioning a SCOTUS decision goes and wait.
     
  13. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Hmm
    Break up with old flame. Revolution
    Start dating on rebound afraid of being lonely. United Colonies.
    Serious dating. 2nd Continental Congress.
    Living together. AOC
    Marriage with prenup. Constitution.
    Domestic violence and move out. Civil War.
    Reconciliation and renewing vows. Reconstruction.
     
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  14. OpnCoronet

    OpnCoronet Major

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    Different and, yet, the same, i.e., did the partners change?
     
  15. Malingerer

    Malingerer First Sergeant

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    It would have been fun to sit in on some of the couples counselling sessions between Louis T. Wigfall and Thad Stevens.
     
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  16. trice

    trice Major

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    Analogies seem right to the people who make them, not always to others.
     
  17. CW Buff

    CW Buff Sergeant

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    If you have 13 states in a perpetual union that can only be altered by unanimous consent, and 11 of those states start a whole new system and government, I don't think it matters how you dress it up, one Union (specific, capital U) has been ended in some way (I think it was effectively dissolved by repeated violations by all of the states, a point I believe Madison made), and another Union has been established. This seems to also be the opinion of the Framers, who in the Constitution specifically indicate it was created "to form a more perfect Union." This is far different from improving an existing union; a whole new Union was formed.

    But I also think it's correct to say there was a degree of continuity of union (small u, in general) from at least the First Continental Congress (when it was called the United Colonies of North America). With 11 of 13 states forming a new union, the states were basically always in union, a union called the USofA always existed, and though it was not guaranteed, all 13 states eventually entered into that final form of Union.

    Technically, the states terminated one specific Union and established a new one. Patriotically speaking, there has always been a union.
     
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  18. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Perhaps one ideal Union composed of a number of unions over time and in time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
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  19. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Continuing on with the shutting down of the AOC.
    When Did the Articles of Confederation Cease to Be Law? P 63 onward.
    Discusses the shutting down of the AOC.

    The resolution did not pass. The Convention seemed to ignore the AOC as a government. The bureaucracy of the AOC continued on until eliminated in the case of the Secretary to the AOC, Charles Thomson or adsorbed into the bureaucracy of the Constitutional government. In fact, the Congress did not meet after October 10, 1788.

    This was a departure from the contemporaneous state constitutions. ibid P 59
     
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  20. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    The case of Kentucky
    When Did the Articles of Confederation Cease to Be Law? P 63 onward.


    What did the Confederation Congress do during the transition period other than administrative actions. The case of not admiring Kentucky as as State is an example. It appears that the AOC decided it could not admit States now.
    Interesting use of Union in the resolution.
     
  21. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    When Did the Articles of Confederation Cease to Be Law? P 63 onward.
    As info
    Our Unconventional Founding" by Bruce Ackerman and Neal Katyal
     

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