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The winding down of the AOC

Discussion in 'Civil War History - Secession and Politics' started by jgoodguy, Aug 29, 2011.

  1. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Thread opened.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017

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  3. trice

    trice Major

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    Sure thing: there is one and only method available to a state wanting to exit the Union under the Articles. You need to get the States in Congress assembled to let you go. If you are SC, you have one vote and need a majority vote in your favor to go, so 6 of the other 12 if all vote. Once you have that, you need to get the legislatures of every state to approve what the Congress decided.

    I think that might be tougher than getting out under the Constitution would be.
     
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  4. trice

    trice Major

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    The US is a Federal Union under International Law. In a Federal Union, the sovereignty of a member state is defined by the Constitution of the Union. Member states in the United States are not considered as sovereign nations in International Law. Member states in Germany have more sovereignty.
     
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  5. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    References?
    If I have to inconvenience CSA_Today and Rebforever, then I have to inconvenience every one.
     
  6. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    I disagree. The States that formed the Constitutional Federal Union, got out without as much as a paper cut.
     
  7. trice

    trice Major

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    Try Oppenheim's International Law. That link is to the 1905 edition, Volume I; look around page 130; the later versions are much larger. It would be hard to discuss anything in the field without knowledge of or reference to Oppenheim.

    The work is currently in the ninth edition, published in 1993. First edition was back in 1905 (Volume I) and 1906 (Volume II). Lassa Oppenheim was a giant in the field, generally regarded as the father of the modern study of International Law, died in 1919, but his work has been THE benchmark in the field ever since. The multi-book volumes of the ninth edition are usually referred to with words like "the classic ninth edition", came out starting in 1993. Updated by the experts in the field since Oppenheim died.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
  8. trice

    trice Major

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    Nope. They never left. There is and always has been only one United States of America. It started in 1776, achieved independence and sovereignty with the American Revolution and the Treaty of Paris, adopted the Articles of Confederation in 1781, the Constitution in 1788-89-90.
     
  9. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Unless the Articles of Confederation are still in effect, they left the Articles of Confederation without a paper cut.
     
  10. ivanj05

    ivanj05 First Sergeant

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    The states did not exit the Articles, they ratified a new government that superseded them. Article Six, Section 1 clearly shows that the United States at no point ceased to be, as all of the obligations of the country existing prior to the ratification of the Constitution were carried forward after the ratification of the Constitution.
     
  11. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Not what historicans say.
    11 States did something that either was a secession-or a side deal with other states depending on the modern historian looking at it that ended the perpetual union.


    Legitimacy of closing down
    America's Constitution: A Biography by Akhil Reed Amar P29
    p3.png
     
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  12. trice

    trice Major

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    Again, there is and always has been one and only one United States of America. This is the Union the states are part of; the Articles are not the Union, the Constitution is not the Union. The Union remains throughout all of this.

    As to the Articles: they were never ended, unless you can show us some evidence of when that happened. The Confederation Congress was adjourned, not dissolved. The government of the Confederation wound down and handed over its records in 1789, but was not abolished. It would be bizarre to see, but the Original Thirteen probably could start that up again just by showing up.
     
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  13. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Again I am not contending the issue about the one and only one United States of America. By the the standards you suggest, the CSA as well as many defunct governments could be started up again.
     
  14. Kenneth Almquist

    Kenneth Almquist Corporal

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    Vattel discusses treaties in Book 2 of his Law of Nations. § 158 says that a nation cannot withdraw from a treaty just because the terms of the treaty prove harmful to the nation's interests. Treaties often include provisions allowing the parties to withdraw by following a specified procedure, but the AOC did not. Therefore, states had no right to withdraw from the AOC.
     
  15. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    The Law of Nations
    This appears to be more a suggestion than a legal brief and is without legal or moral authority.


    Also
    It appears that the AOC did not have "with sufficient powers for the purpose"
    It appears also that the States of the AOC allegedly breached the treaty.
    I submit that the AOC was defective in the end and that relieved the States of loyalty to it.
     
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  16. trice

    trice Major

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    The Articles were only a set of rules defining how the United States was to be run. The members decided to change the rules and adopted the Constitution as a new set of rules(with a very odd criteria for putting them in place as soon as 9 states ratified).

    There is nothing at all unusual about this. States have replaced their constitutions frequently without dissolving. For example, the Original Thirteen had new constitutions in these years:
    • New Hampshire: 1776, 1784
    • Massachusetts: 1780 (amended 120 times, including by conventions in 1820-21, 1853, 1917-18)
      • 1778 constitution rejected by voters
    • Rhode Island: 1842, 1987 (the 1663 Charter of Charles II before that)
    • Connecticut: 1818, 1965 (the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut from 1639 before that)
    • New York: 1777, 1821, 1846, 1894, 1938 (9 constitutional conventions, question every 20 years since 1846)
    • New Jersey: 1776, 1834, 1947
    • Pennsylvania: 1776, 1790, 1838, 1874, 1968
    • Delaware: 1776, 1792, 1831, 1897
    • Maryland: 1776, 1851, 1864, 1867
    • Virginia: 1776, 1830, 1851, 1864, 1870, 1902, 1971
    • North Carolina: 1776, 1868, 1971
    • South Carolina: 1776, 1778, 1790, 1861, 1865, 1868, 1895
    • Georgia: 1777, 1787, 1798, 1861, 1865, 1868, 1877, 1945, 1976, 1983
    None of those states dissolved when changing from one constitution to the next. The cities, towns and counties did not become somehow sovereign and independent in between constitutions. All that happened was that the rules of government changed. New Hampshire was still New Hampshire, Georgia was still Georgia, New Jersey was still New Jersey.

    It is the same with the United States. Individual states did not leave the United States in the changeover between the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union and the Constitution. They were not somehow independent and sovereign nations before they ratified the new Constitution. They were part of the United States all along.

    If you do not wish to contend with the issue of the being one and only one United States, stop claiming that states left it when they did not.
     
  17. KeyserSoze

    KeyserSoze Captain

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    Got out of what?
     
  18. KeyserSoze

    KeyserSoze Captain

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    They changed one form of government for another. How is that getting out of anything?
     
  19. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    If you are averring 'They changed one form of government for another' then like changing underwear, they got out of something.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
  20. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    The AOC.
     
  21. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Me thinks you protest too much and misrepresent what I post.
     
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