The South Recruits Freemen

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mo
I would think that the fact that freed blacks were not treated well in the South would argue against voluntarily going the Confederate Army. Southern blacks weren't familiar with Northern racism but they certainly had a score to settle with Southern whites.
Leftyhunter
Again its a matter of record they weren't treated well in the north either, yet it didn't stop them when offered individual freedom. Neither did the fact the north had slaves.

A chance at individual freedom whether for a slave holding nation that still wont treat you as an equal, is still an opportunity to better oneself from slavery, so they took it, whether for the US or against the US with GB.......as they more then likewise would have also for the CSA if it had been offered. To them it wasn't some abstract political issue for others, but a chance to better oneself
 
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Patently unfounded. Carry on.
???? yes you are as usual, however if one actually researches it, they will find the desertion among whites was 63 per 1000, for USCT it was 67 per 1000........which is indeed slightly higher as I noted......... so carry on with your nonsense as you usually do

I have noticed actually looking into things isn't your strong suit, so I will help you out as my good deed for the day........You'll actually have to watch and listen though.......as here is an author who actually has researched it.


He also notes most USCT it wasn't some love of nation or devotion to the Union, but simply a chance for individual freedom, as i have likewise noted.
 
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Harms88

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IOff topic, but I'd like to ask how you came to 190,000 men. I am myself working on a paper for a history course regarding the practicality of Cleburne's proposal, and am scouring all over to figure out the possible manpower pool they could have recruited from. If you have sources or statistics on this, I'd love to see them so I can cite it.
I'll keep your book in my "to read" list, definitely. Thank you for the post

At the moment it's in rough draft stage but it's indeed as another member mentioned recruitment among the slave populace as well. My assumption is that if they were offered the chance to fight for their freedom but as southern soldiers, many would have taken the opportunity. That way they didn't have to run to the nearest Federal forces.

Many if not most of these blacks probably considered the South as home. Maybe not the best place but it was still home and they would maybe have wanted to do something to protect it.
 

Harms88

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Sorry/not sorry to double post, but now that I am more awake (I was still in the process of waking up when I replied in the last post) I can go a bit more fully in detail on my answer.

IOff topic, but I'd like to ask how you came to 190,000 men. I am myself working on a paper for a history course regarding the practicality of Cleburne's proposal, and am scouring all over to figure out the possible manpower pool they could have recruited from. If you have sources or statistics on this, I'd love to see them so I can cite it.
I'll keep your book in my "to read" list, definitely. Thank you for the post

The number as @Carronade suggests is based off the idea that the Cleburne Proposal which is known in my story as Amendment 1 of the Confederate Constitution, better known as the Cleburne Amendment was specifically aimed at raising among the slave men of the south. To get more technical in how I came up with 190,000, this is how I arrived at the number.

A: The USCT numbers would dramatically drop if there were Colored Regiments fighting for the South. So we aren't talking about 180,000 Northern black troops vs 190,000 Southern black troops. We're probably looking more at maybe 100,000 Northern vs the 190,000 Southern blacks.

B. I read a few years back that the Freedman's Bureau did a survey shortly after the war where they asked many of the newly freed slaves how they felt about their new freedom. Supposedly, the majority of them said they wish they were still slaves. I don't know if this is real, but I don't doubt that since the majority of them grew up in slavery, they didn't understand what freedom could possibly mean for them and slavery was simply what their reality had been.

C. Now, for this exact number, the way I worked it out is that the Confederate Congress authorized as many brigades for the States depending on their individual number on the order of state secessions. So in South Carolina, there was only one brigade authorized because it was the first state to secede. While Georgia, where the prologue takes place, has five, because it was the fifth state to secede. So you get down to Tennessee, and they were authorized for eleven brigades since they were the last official state to go out.

D. I may have to amend how this Amendment would work, seeing as by the time this fictional Amendment was enacted, several states like Tennessee were overrun by Federals so there's no way they would have been able to raise several full brigades of Black Troops. Huh, good thing I've just barely started this book and it can easily be amended in rewrites, unlike The Last Jedi.

The 190,000 figure in @Harms88's novel assumes they implement Cleburne's proposal to recruit from the slave population with the promise of freedom.

Aside from the concerns @thomas aagaard cited, there's a limit to how much manpower you can take out of the economy and still support the war effort. Granted some slaves were house servants and such, but most were doing important work on farms, in factories, on railroads, etc. They had already taken most of the able-bodied white men, which often caused hardship for their families and communities, and the war added to the demands on the labor force.


To be sure, even in my fictional scenario, the addition of thousands of men pulled from the line would have in no way helped with the food shortages the Confederates were experiencing, only exasperating them. In truth, the only way a massive arming of the black populace would have not been a burden on the Confederacy was if France or England decided to join in the war and broken the Blockade, allowing for food shipments to be sent to the South.
 

leftyhunter

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Again its a matter of record they weren't treated well in the north either, yet it didn't stop them when offered individual freedom. Neither did the fact the north had slaves.

A chance at individual freedom whether for a slave holding nation that still wont treat you as an equal, is still an opportunity to better oneself from slavery, so they took it, whether for the US or against the US with GB.......as they more then likewise would have also for the CSA if it had been offered. To them it wasn't some abstract political issue for others, but a chance to better oneself
If a Southern slave is offered freedom in exchange for military service but the Union actually pays in real money vs Confederate monopoly money vs a chance to kill ones former oppressors that might encourage any black slave volunteer to defect to the Union. If the Union offers an award plus a peaceful civilian life that might bring about black Confederate soldiers to desert.
Of course all he above is hypothetical. All we know that there were only three weeks left in the war before the Confederacy allowed black men to volunteer in the army and maybe had just sixty volunteers who quickly surrendered at Painsville.
Leftyhunter
 

Carronade

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C. Now, for this exact number, the way I worked it out is that the Confederate Congress authorized as many brigades for the States depending on their individual number on the order of state secessions. So in South Carolina, there was only one brigade authorized because it was the first state to secede. While Georgia, where the prologue takes place, has five, because it was the fifth state to secede. So you get down to Tennessee, and they were authorized for eleven brigades since they were the last official state to go out.

If I might offer a suggestion, unless this numerical allocation is important to the plot, mightn't it work better to base the authorization on the numbers of slaves in each state? The total number of brigades or troops authorized could be the same, just apportioned according to the numbers of potential recruits. Your system works out to 66 brigades, about one per 50,000 slaves or 10,000 adult males, depending exactly what ages you consider eligible.
 
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If a Southern slave is offered freedom in exchange for military service but the Union actually pays in real money vs Confederate monopoly money vs a chance to kill ones former oppressors that might encourage any black slave volunteer to defect to the Union. If the Union offers an award plus a peaceful civilian life that might bring about black Confederate soldiers to desert.
Of course all he above is hypothetical. All we know that there were only three weeks left in the war before the Confederacy allowed black men to volunteer in the army and maybe had just sixty volunteers who quickly surrendered at Painsville.
Leftyhunter
Certainly is hypothetical, but per the OP would assume if they had recruited free blacks, it would have been initially when LNG and others were offering, at this point the outcome of the war, or whose money would be monopoly money certainly was not settled...….if In 64 or 65 I would agree no reason they wouldn't desert as fast as whites were when it was becoming obvious it was lost. See no reason a black would want to die for nothing, anymore then a white would either at that point

That they offered, suggests they were caught up in the excitement as everyone else in 61
 

leftyhunter

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los angeles ca
Certainly is hypothetical, but per the OP would assume if they had recruited free blacks, it would have been initially when LNG and others were offering, at this point the outcome of the war, or whose money would be monopoly money certainly was not settled...….if In 64 or 65 I would agree no reason they wouldn't desert as fast as whites were when it was becoming obvious it was lost. See no reason a black would want to die for nothing, anymore then a white would either at that point

That they offered, suggests they were caught up in the excitement as everyone else in 61
There were a few black Confederate volunteers early in the war but they were dropped from the rolls by the Confederate Army
Yes there was the LNG and a proposed black military group in Mobile that never saw combat. Still the Confederacy had no desire to recruit black troops until way to little and late in the war . It's hard to imagine that even if the Confederate Army did openly recruit black soldiers immediate post Ft.Sumter they would of had many volunteers.
Leftyhunter
 
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That is not how historical work is done. You can't prove a negative, only point out the lack of evidence.

My claim is that 10.000 Martians fought during the war for the CSA...
And you can't disprove it. You can just point out that there is no evidence of intelligent life on mars... or any evidence of Martial involvement in the war.
So since that is the positive claim, it is up to me to prove it.

And if you think that the LNG was involved in combat in defense of the city, it is up to you to prove it... since that is the positive claim.
Exactly, it's a non falsifible claim. You can't prove something that didn't happen.
 

Harms88

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If I might offer a suggestion, unless this numerical allocation is important to the plot, mightn't it work better to base the authorization on the numbers of slaves in each state? The total number of brigades or troops authorized could be the same, just apportioned according to the numbers of potential recruits. Your system works out to 66 brigades, about one per 50,000 slaves or 10,000 adult males, depending exactly what ages you consider eligible.

The numbers aren't exactly important beyond the opening up of the Garrison units across the South, freeing the what, 90,000 or so men in the Deep South and the tens of thousands in the Shenendoah and state/national capitols for service in the field armies. And it could work better (the brigades are based on brigades fielding 3,000 each) as you suggest as some states wouldn't be able to field as many brigades as are authorized.
 

byron ed

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???? yes you are as usual, however if one actually researches it, they will find the desertion among whites was 63 per 1000, for USCT it was 67 per 1000...which is indeed slightly higher as I noted...here is an author who actually has researched it.

I didn't say it hadn't been researched, I said it was unfounded. Listen to what that author actually has on it.
 

Luke Freet

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Sorry/not sorry to double post, but now that I am more awake (I was still in the process of waking up when I replied in the last post) I can go a bit more fully in detail on my answer.



The number as @Carronade suggests is based off the idea that the Cleburne Proposal which is known in my story as Amendment 1 of the Confederate Constitution, better known as the Cleburne Amendment was specifically aimed at raising among the slave men of the south. To get more technical in how I came up with 190,000, this is how I arrived at the number.

A: The USCT numbers would dramatically drop if there were Colored Regiments fighting for the South. So we aren't talking about 180,000 Northern black troops vs 190,000 Southern black troops. We're probably looking more at maybe 100,000 Northern vs the 190,000 Southern blacks.

B. I read a few years back that the Freedman's Bureau did a survey shortly after the war where they asked many of the newly freed slaves how they felt about their new freedom. Supposedly, the majority of them said they wish they were still slaves. I don't know if this is real, but I don't doubt that since the majority of them grew up in slavery, they didn't understand what freedom could possibly mean for them and slavery was simply what their reality had been.

C. Now, for this exact number, the way I worked it out is that the Confederate Congress authorized as many brigades for the States depending on their individual number on the order of state secessions. So in South Carolina, there was only one brigade authorized because it was the first state to secede. While Georgia, where the prologue takes place, has five, because it was the fifth state to secede. So you get down to Tennessee, and they were authorized for eleven brigades since they were the last official state to go out.

D. I may have to amend how this Amendment would work, seeing as by the time this fictional Amendment was enacted, several states like Tennessee were overrun by Federals so there's no way they would have been able to raise several full brigades of Black Troops. Huh, good thing I've just barely started this book and it can easily be amended in rewrites, unlike The Last Jedi.




To be sure, even in my fictional scenario, the addition of thousands of men pulled from the line would have in no way helped with the food shortages the Confederates were experiencing, only exasperating them. In truth, the only way a massive arming of the black populace would have not been a burden on the Confederacy was if France or England decided to join in the war and broken the Blockade, allowing for food shipments to be sent to the South.
So, a lot to take in.
First of all, while yes, U.S.C.T. recruitment would decrease, i doubt a significant portion would defect BACK to the confederacy as many pro-confederate authors suggest.
And for Point C...how would Tennessee raise 11 brigades when pretty much all of the state was in Union hands by that point (minus a small sliver of East tennessee) while other states, like Georgia and SC, who retain most of its territory, would only recruit by such a bizarre mandate, rather than a more practical basis?
 

Harms88

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So, a lot to take in.
First of all, while yes, U.S.C.T. recruitment would decrease, i doubt a significant portion would defect BACK to the confederacy as many pro-confederate authors suggest.
And for Point C...how would Tennessee raise 11 brigades when pretty much all of the state was in Union hands by that point (minus a small sliver of East tennessee) while other states, like Georgia and SC, who retain most of its territory, would only recruit by such a bizarre mandate, rather than a more practical basis?

Why are you trying to introduce logic to my story? :giggle::giggle:

No, actually, it was as I was writing the answer that I realized that the current format wouldn't work, with as you say Tennessee being all but lost and vast section of Louisiana and Mississippi already taken. So I will probably shake up to a brigade for every 50,000 slaves per state. Still accomplishes what I'm going for but makes a bit more sense.

As for the idea of Union colored troops defecting to the Confederacy, nope. Especially with the orders to enslave any black caught in battle and the execution of their officers as promiting servile insurrection. These would be including men that would have joined the Union army, but with this new option would volunteer for the CS instead.
 
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Joined
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mo
I didn't say it hadn't been researched, I said it was unfounded. Listen to what that author actually has on it.

I did the numbers proving it were slightly higher was directly quoted from him as he notes as well
 
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18thVirginia

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I think its really important to acknowledge the very, very unique circumstances of NO and its antebellum population of free blacks\mulattos.

Seems important to remember what a tiny space geographically antebellum New Orleans was and how interlinked with the landowning/business owning population of the City this group of black citizens were. They might have felt more obvious to the white population because the business was in a very limited area and they would have been very visible. Also, the French and Spanish history of New Orleans was so different that these men were known to be the brothers, nephews, cousins to whites who were forming other military units.

Again, they might have felt more visible to the white establishment that was beginning to prepare militarily.
 

Dead Parrott

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Seems important to remember what a tiny space geographically antebellum New Orleans was and how interlinked with the landowning/business owning population of the City this group of black citizens were. They might have felt more obvious to the white population because the business was in a very limited area and they would have been very visible. Also, the French and Spanish history of New Orleans was so different that these men were known to be the brothers, nephews, cousins to whites who were forming other military units.

Again, they might have felt more visible to the white establishment that was beginning to prepare militarily.

Agreed. the Creole population had a long-standing insular cultural niche, interwoven with the NO commercial world yet very self-focused and self-contained. Not only were they legally established as a 'middle tier' between other whites and other blacks, they intermarried within themselves, supported the advancement and success of their same-tier brethren, and emulated the best of the white culture. Creoles felt and acted like the distinction between themselves and the white tier was less, and the distinction between themselves and the black tier more, and they jealously protected their legal and social status. Like any such culture, they acted in what they perceived to be their own best interests.

Problem was, the White tier considered them closer to the blacks that to themselves, something Creoles were aware of if in hopeful denial about. As the prospect of war neared, there were laws proposed and passed (and actions taken) which cut into Creole prerogatives, threatening their standing, their continuance, and making it crystal clear how the white tier perceived them. When war came, doubts about Creole loyalty exacerbated those growing threats, increasing the likelihood of more and sharper legislative reduction of their niche. In response, many Creoles proclaimed for the CSA and formed the militia unit. This is not to say they didn't feel genuine loyalty - they certainly wanted to protect their standing, their land, their home positions, and their culture. As stated, some were slave owners - and given the need to be 'above' the Black tier, the last thing many wanted was an Emancipation which could remove some of that important distinction. Plus, at a very basic level, NO was 'Home'. I believe their loyalty was genuine if completely self-serving.

There are some truly amazing research studies into the transformation of the Creole political culture before and after the war - especially regarding their switch from privileged middle tier to leaders of black rights. But such a discussion is beyond the scope of the OT.

On topic, I believe the evidence shows they were motivated both by true loyalty to their tier position in NO, their common interests with the CSA (slave owners and anti-emancipation), their weak but hopeful belief that they were closer to the white tier than the black tier, and by reaction to protecting their position against the real and growing suspicions and threats against it.

It's a fascinating topic the more you research it!
 

major bill

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So back to the OP. Were there enough free blacks willing to join the confederate Army to make any real difference in the War? The Confederacy did not seem interested in accepting free blacks as armed soldiers. So would allowing free blacks caused any problems with other Southern soldiers? I assume that some issues would have happened,
 

wbull1

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Umm because they were as you say all ready free. Most people of any race care little outside their little world.....as long as I'm being given something, it not a big priority to me whether you are getting something, is the norm.

As the author noted with USCT desertion, blacks werent fighting for any love of the US......they were fighting for individual freedom, just as they had been willing to fight for Britain against the US when the British offered freedom in the war of 1812. If the CSA had offered freedom to slaves, the motivation would be the same as it was for the US or for Great Britain

Just as USCT would join the US despite the fact the US was still holding slaves also. Its odd people tend to forget the US was still holding some 400,000+ slaves.


What seems odd to me is that you neglect to mention that According to the 1860 Census in the northern states there were 2 slaves in Kansas and 18 in New Jersey. The census also shows 45, 001 slaves in the Border States, which initially did not commit to either side (Missouri, Delaware, Maryland, and Kentucky.) In current or future confederate states there were nearly 3.5 million slaves. So of states that immediately opposed secession held a grand total of 20 slaves.
 
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What seems odd to me is that you neglect to mention that According to the 1860 Census in the northern states there were 2 slaves in Kansas and 18 in New Jersey. The census also shows 45, 001 slaves in the Border States, which initially did not commit to either side (Missouri, Delaware, Maryland, and Kentucky.) In current or future confederate states there were nearly 3.5 million slaves. So of states that immediately opposed secession held a grand total of 20 slaves.
I used the United States, because when Lincoln says he has no intention of interfering with slavery where it exists within the United States, there was 400+k in the states that remained in the US. And it was indeed still being protected in those states. When referring to a nation, one uses the total of that nation, just as if I was referring to the CSA I would have said 3 million plus.

After the CW starts roughly 10% of the slaves of the prewar United States remained as slaves in the United States. Which would in fact leave the United States still a slaveholding nation. Most of those slaves were not freed until after the creation of the USCT.

If one says they think slaves wouldn't enlist for a country that held slaves. The fact is they enlisted to the US when the US still held slaves in the ACW, as well for both the US and GB in the war of 1812, despite both still held slaves as well. A opportunity for individual freedom is still freedom to those enlisting.

But as Bill states he want to go back to free blacks, we know some offered, and were declined, but the free black population wasn't significant enough to make much a difference. The only black population that could have made a significant difference was slaves and either would have to be done at the beginning of the war to be effective which they were likewise unwilling to do. Because by late 64-65 race would be somewhat irrelevant as a call for volunteers for whats the last gasp of a lost cause, isn't going to garner volunteers from virtually anyone regardless of race.
 
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CLuckJD

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USCT also shared a slightly higher desertion rate then their white counterparts.
Didn't know that but it's also vital to take another fact into account. There's a big difference between deserting and defection that switches loyalty to your archfoe during war. So, what's the odds that just one Black USCT would go right back to fight for what they went through so much to escape in the first place? That is, even IF they could stay alive one day after they arrive or rebels would have let Black men bear arms on their behalf?
 
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