The Real Cause of the Civil War: In 1860, Southern Plantation Owners owed $1 billion+ to NY Banks


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brass napoleon

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#63
I think that Confederate ideal was be to be the dominant nation in North America, with the remnant of the United States given the clear understanding that the United States was free to do what it wanted only to the extent it refrained from doing anything that annoyed the Confederacy.
By Jove, I think you're right about that. More importantly, so did CSA Vice President Alexander Stephens:

"The process of disintegration in the old Union may be expected to go on with almost absolute certainty if we pursue the right course. We are now the nucleus of a growing power which, if we are true to ourselves, our destiny, and high mission, will become the controlling power on this continent. To what extent accessions will go on in the process of time, or where it will end, the future will determine."

- Alexander H. Stephens, March 21, 1861

Source: <http://books.google.com/books?id=qjA6AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA726&lpg=PA726
 
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#65
I think that Confederate ideal was be to be the dominant nation in North America, with the remnant of the United States given the clear understanding that the United States was free to do what it wanted only to the extent it refrained from doing anything that annoyed the Confederacy. So the Sequestration Act wasn't just about money; it was also part of a contest to determine whether the Confederacy or the United States would be the dominant nation in North America. It was a way of saying, "I can step on your toes, and I won't let you step on mine." Business interests were secondary to winning that conflict.
That is an interpretation we don't see too much on this forum. Many people make the comment that the Confederates "just wanted to be left alone," not to become this kind of dominant nation.

- Alan
 
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#66
That is an interpretation we don't see too much on this forum. Many people make the comment that the Confederates "just wanted to be left alone," not to become this kind of dominant nation.

- Alan
KA makes a good point. The CSA tried to seize the New Mexico territory (present day Az and Nm) but failed. The CSA would of tried to take Southern Ca but thanks to the brave fighting by the first use of Mexican-American troops and the miners of Co they where stopped dead in their tracks. Alvin Josephy "the Civil War in the West gives more detail. The Confederates wanted to be left alone has long has they can have what ever territory they could seize for slavery.
Leftyhunter
 
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#69
While I certainly concur that "economics" was a huge factor in the coming of the Civil War prior to the happenings of April, 1861, I doubt seriously that a majority of the South's plantation aristocracy pushed for war in order to repudiate their debt. Indeed, they were counting on their financial and business ties with the textile manufacturers, merchants, bankers and shipping companies of the Northeast to affect a bloodless separation. One of the more illuminating documents on the state of mind of the Southern leadership is James Hammond's "Cotton is King" speech.
 
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IcarusPhoenix

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#70
Wait, what? Ezra Pound was an anti-Semite? Thanks for ruining him for me...I'll never read his poetry again :cry:
Why not? The men most integral to the formation of the Republic owned other human beings and worked them to death, but that doesn't diminish my love of my country. Ernest Hemingway was a raging misogynist, but that doesn't diminish the quality of his writing. I know of few great composers whose personal lives weren't decidedly interesting, but that i no way detracts from their talents. Art - at least good art - generally transcends and exists independently of its own creators.

On the topic of the surreal OP - and just to put things in perspective - the alleged debt of the southern states to hypothetical New York banks in 1860 of $1 billion would be nearly $26 billion in today's dollars. If that number sounds unrealistically large to you, you're right.
 
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#71
That is an interpretation we don't see too much on this forum. Many people make the comment that the Confederates "just wanted to be left alone," not to become this kind of dominant nation.

- Alan
The thing is that the South was, to a large degree, being left alone. They complain about the Republican's refusal to allow slavery in the territories, outside of the Southern states. They complain about inconsistent compliance with the fugitive slave clause outside of the Southern states. They complain about abolitionists, in the Northern states, saying nasty things about the South. They complain about John Brown's raid, which did occur in the South, but it's hard to see how secession would make that type of illegal activity harder.

0307.jpg

(source: http://www.abrahamlincolncartoons.info/SubPages/Cartoon.php?UniqueID=168)
 

James B White

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#72
Sort of off topic, but what kind of gun is Lincoln pictured holding in that cartoon? I know it's just a cartoon, but is that something recognizable? Some kind of repeating rifle, with a cylinder like a pistol? I don't know period guns at all.
 
#73
Sort of off topic, but what kind of gun is Lincoln pictured holding in that cartoon? I know it's just a cartoon, but is that something recognizable? Some kind of repeating rifle, with a cylinder like a pistol? I don't know period guns at all.
It sort of resembles what was called a revolving pill-lock rifle that were made by local gunsmiths during the 1840s.
 
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#74
For 150 years, Southerners have clung to 'The Cause' of States Rights for why the Civil War was fought. In an attempt to rewrite history and thus promote their 'righteousness', even some Neo-Confederates on this forum and elsewhere continue their propaganda of "The Civil War wasn't fought over slavery." Not only was the Civil War all about the struggle to free the African-American slaves, Southerners have attempted to mute how the Rebels never took black Union soldiers prisoner - they were always ruthlessly shot! Furthermore, the real reason for the Southern Secession movement has been effectively kept out of the history books. In 1860, Southern plantation owners were greatly in debt to New York City banks to the tune of over $1 billion dollars! That was a HUGE amount of money back then and no matter how much cotton they sold, they could never pay it back. The plantation owners figured if they could get the Southern States leaders to secede, then they wouldn't have to repay their debts. Wow! I was never taught that in school; you won't find that 'little fact' in a college textbook, battlefield park gift shop or History Channel program.

The combined worth of the African slaves in the Southern States was greater than all the other combined wealth in the United States. Yes, money and greed were the real cause of the Civil War but that wouldn't get hundreds of thousands of Southern men to fight and maybe die for that! So the slave owners' propaganda was "States rights and no Northerners coming down here and telling us how to live!"

Have you heard of anything more evil? Of course, the Northern bankers were also at fault. Their lending practices forced the plantation owners to take drastic actions! It's time to write the truth in the history books.
Where is the back up material for this. I am really interested and would like to read more.
 

jgoodguy

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#75
Where is the back up material for this. I am really interested and would like to read more.
The number of US banks and outstanding loans.
Antebellum Banking in the United States - table 1
Year:1860 number of Banks in the US 1562 Outstanding loans $691.9 million or .7 billion US billions.

It appears that New York did not have a billion outstanding.

No 1860 figures for New York outstanding loans but we have 1850 loans outstanding from New York of $516,300 in 1850 total loans were $3,642,000 or 14% multiply that by the 1860 figure 691,900,000 and we get $96,866,000 much less than 1 billion.
 
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OpnCoronet

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#76
For 150 years, Southerners have clung to 'The Cause' of States Rights for why the Civil War was fought. In an attempt to rewrite history and thus promote their 'righteousness', even some Neo-Confederates on this forum and elsewhere continue their propaganda of "The Civil War wasn't fought over slavery." Not only was the Civil War all about the struggle to free the African-American slaves, Southerners have attempted to mute how the Rebels never took black Union soldiers prisoner - they were always ruthlessly shot! Furthermore, the real reason for the Southern Secession movement has been effectively kept out of the history books. In 1860, Southern plantation owners were greatly in debt to New York City banks to the tune of over $1 billion dollars! That was a HUGE amount of money back then and no matter how much cotton they sold, they could never pay it back. The plantation owners figured if they could get the Southern States leaders to secede, then they wouldn't have to repay their debts. Wow! I was never taught that in school; you won't find that 'little fact' in a college textbook, battlefield park gift shop or History Channel program.

The combined worth of the African slaves in the Southern States was greater than all the other combined wealth in the United States. Yes, money and greed were the real cause of the Civil War but that wouldn't get hundreds of thousands of Southern men to fight and maybe die for that! So the slave owners' propaganda was "States rights and no Northerners coming down here and telling us how to live!"
Have you heard of anything more evil? Of course, the Northern bankers were also at fault. Their lending practices forced the plantation owners to take drastic actions! It's time to write the truth in the history books.





If it has not already been mentioned, historically, Northern Bankers, as a class, in particular those doing business with the South, seem to have favored letting the erring sisters go, in peace.

I believe that a peaceful secession would leave the debts in question, legally intact and binding, subject to peaceful renegotiating to recognize the change of states of laws between states and those between nations.

In fact thought, the historical record seems to indicate quite clearly, that if the OP is correct, then it would seem that it was the South that initiated war in order to repudiate its debts. I

f the Op is correct, then, Northern Bankers were willing to see their southern compatriots leave the Union, peacefully, but, it was the South who initiated war, in order to repudiate their debts.
 

jgoodguy

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#77
If it has not already been mentioned, historically, Northern Bankers, as a class, in particular those doing business with the South, seem to have favored letting the erring sisters go, in peace.

I believe that a peaceful secession would leave the debts in question, legally intact and binding, subject to peaceful renegotiating to recognize the change of states of laws between states and those between nations.

In fact thought, the historical record seems to indicate quite clearly, that if the OP is correct, then it would seem that it was the South that initiated war in order to repudiate its debts. I

f the Op is correct, then, Northern Bankers were willing to see their southern compatriots leave the Union, peacefully, but, it was the South who initiated war, in order to repudiate their debts.
the most likely is honor debts because dishonoring debt leads to fewer lenders willing to lend and higher rates. Emotions and politics might mean a different result.
 
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#78
The number of US banks and outstanding loans.
Antebellum Banking in the United States - table 1
Year:1860 number of Banks in the US 1562 Outstanding loans $691.9 million or .7 billion US billions.

It appears that New York did not have a billion outstanding.

No 1860 figures for New York outstanding loans but we have 1850 loans outstanding from New York of $516,300 in 1850 total loans were $3,642,000 or 14% multiply that by the 1860 figure 691,900,000 and we get $96,866,000 much less than 1 billion.
Of that figure what would the round numbers be for Southern debt held by US Banks outside the South?
Leftyhunter
 
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#79
For 150 years, Southerners have clung to 'The Cause' of States Rights for why the Civil War was fought. In an attempt to rewrite history and thus promote their 'righteousness', even some Neo-Confederates on this forum and elsewhere continue their propaganda of "The Civil War wasn't fought over slavery." Not only was the Civil War all about the struggle to free the African-American slaves, Southerners have attempted to mute how the Rebels never took black Union soldiers prisoner - they were always ruthlessly shot! Furthermore, the real reason for the Southern Secession movement has been effectively kept out of the history books. In 1860, Southern plantation owners were greatly in debt to New York City banks to the tune of over $1 billion dollars! That was a HUGE amount of money back then and no matter how much cotton they sold, they could never pay it back. The plantation owners figured if they could get the Southern States leaders to secede, then they wouldn't have to repay their debts. Wow! I was never taught that in school; you won't find that 'little fact' in a college textbook, battlefield park gift shop or History Channel program.

The combined worth of the African slaves in the Southern States was greater than all the other combined wealth in the United States. Yes, money and greed were the real cause of the Civil War but that wouldn't get hundreds of thousands of Southern men to fight and maybe die for that! So the slave owners' propaganda was "States rights and no Northerners coming down here and telling us how to live!"

Have you heard of anything more evil? Of course, the Northern bankers were also at fault. Their lending practices forced the plantation owners to take drastic actions! It's time to write the truth in the history books.
Deleted; reason: I see this is an old post.
 
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