The predicted outcome of resupplying Ft. Sumter

WJC

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The Lincoln regime certainly had no intentions of negotiating so, in essence, it was a waste of everybody's time.
By the same token, the Davis administration was unwilling to enter into any negotiations that might surrender their newly claimed 'independence'.
Given those two positions, negotiation was impossible.
 

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CSA Today

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Thanks for your response.
In this thread, I don't believe anyone before you questioned the constitutionality of secession.
However, in response to @unionblue's assertion that "it was the Constitution, the law, and the nation Lincoln was trying to uphold", you asked, "Uphold the constitution? Lincoln was ready to provoke war based on what obscure or non-existent clause?"
I responded, identifying that "obscure or non-existent clause".
I see no reason to question the constitutionality of secession, there is nothing therein that prohibits it.
 

KansasFreestater

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Caleb B. Smith to Abraham Lincoln, Saturday, March 16, 1861
If the evacuation of Fort Sumpter could be justly regarded as a measure which would even by implication, sanction the lawless acts of the authorities of that State, or indicate an intention on the part of the government to surrender its constitutional authority over them, or if it could be regarded as an acknowlegement by the government of its inability to enforce the laws, I should without hesitation advise that it should be held without regard to the sacrifices which its retention might impose. I do not believe however, that the abandonment of the Fort would imply such an acknowledgment on the part of the government. There are other means by which the power and the honor of the Government may be vindicated, and which would in my judgment be much more effective to compel the people of South Carolina to render obedience to the laws, and which would at the same time avoid the sacrifice of life which must result from a conflict under the walls of the Fort.

In this letter, at least, Caleb Smith does not enlighten us as to what those "other means" might be.

Obviously, Lincoln believed that surrendering Fort Sumter would be caving in to the lawless traitors of South Carolina. (I agree.) Lincoln felt very strongly that he had been elected precisely to stand firm for the integrity of the United States of America. He regarded it as a betrayal of his party and of the mandate he'd received from the American electorate to cave in on a matter of such importance.
 

KansasFreestater

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Yet the official records show no such offer by the Confederate authorities. Just think instead of cannons surrounding Fort Sumter, a flotilla of boats in a circle around Fort Sumter with good eats and when the wind was just right the hot shot furnace converted into a BBQ pit wafting the smell in the direction of the hapless fort.

Shows the Confederate single-minded pursuit of war.
Much as I love William H. Seward, I blame him for much of this mess. It was he who, running a back channel without Lincoln's knowledge, led the Confederates to believe that Sumter would be surrendered. Lincoln's reasonable (to my mind) determination to get food to the garrison so that they wouldn't starve was therefore perceived by the Confederates as an outrageous affront; they mistakenly felt that Lincoln's administration had gone back on its word. In fact, Lincoln had given no such word; but Seward had made them think that he had.

The Sumter imbroglio seems to me, therefore, to have been a completely avoidable mess. On the other hand, it was inevitable that war would come. Whether it began at the mouth of the Mississippi, as Bates mentioned, or anywhere else, it was going to come. Might as well be Sumter.
 

KeyserSoze

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The addition of the upper South and border states would have roughly tripled the white population of the CS so a shrewd move once it became evident that Lincoln would go to war rather than let The CSA exist in peace.
Davis knew that without a war he'd never get them. Hence his attack at Sumter.
 

Viper21

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He regarded it as a betrayal of his party and of the mandate he'd received from the American electorate to cave in on a matter of such importance.​

Hardly a "mandate". If you remove John Quincy Adams from the equation, Lincoln took office with lowest % of popular vote of any president in our history 39.65%. Coincidentally, The 1860 election had the highest voter turnout on record 81.8% while, 1824 had the lowest (26.9%)

In addition to the numbers, I think the electoral map shows how strong Lincoln's "mandate" was. Not a single southern, or "border state".

348px-ElectoralCollege1860.svg.png
 

KeyserSoze

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Hardly a "mandate". If you remove John Quincy Adams from the equation, Lincoln took office with lowest % of popular vote of any president in our history 39.65%. Coincidentally, The 1860 election had the highest voter turnout on record 81.8% while, 1824 had the lowest (26.9%)

In addition to the numbers, I think the electoral map shows how strong Lincoln's "mandate" was. Not a single southern, or "border state".

348px-ElectoralCollege1860.svg.png
Lincoln took 60% of the electoral votes. That's a mandate by any definition of the word. And of those 180 electoral votes, in states awarding 173 of them Lincoln took an absolute majority of the votes cast. Not a plurality but a majority. So I'd say he had a mandate to preserve the country.
 

MattL

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Well no-one knew for sure what would happen, though certainly it was obvious Confederate aggression could be a response. I thought this was common knowledge?

Much like those stating secession would lead to further aggression as well.

Sam Houston

https://www.nps.gov/apco/february-1861.htm
----
Some of you laugh to scorn the idea of bloodshed as the result of secession, but let me tell you what is coming....Your fathers and husbands, your sons and brothers, will be herded at the point of the bayonet....You may after the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives, as a bare possibility, win Southern independence...but I doubt it. I tell you that, while I believe with you in the doctrine of state rights, the North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction...they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche; and what I fear is, they will overwhelm the South.
----
 

MattL

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Not bad, but as mentioned earlier, the South wanted the North out.

My thoughts about the "feast" was to be after the agreement to leave.
Here you illustrate the key factor. The CSA was the one who wanted change. They weren't happy with the United States of America and the elected President under the system established by the US founding fathers.

Certainly the onus comes to the entity wanting change, since change requires action. They took that action and everything else followed. They could have just reorganized their political efforts and retook the next election.
 

Viper21

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Well no-one knew for sure what would happen, though certainly it was obvious Confederate aggression could be a response. I thought this was common knowledge?

Much like those stating secession would lead to further aggression as well.

Sam Houston

https://www.nps.gov/apco/february-1861.htm
----
Some of you laugh to scorn the idea of bloodshed as the result of secession, but let me tell you what is coming....Your fathers and husbands, your sons and brothers, will be herded at the point of the bayonet....You may after the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives, as a bare possibility, win Southern independence...but I doubt it. I tell you that, while I believe with you in the doctrine of state rights, the North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction...they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche; and what I fear is, they will overwhelm the South.
----
I dig Sam Houston. A great prophetic quote for sure. He was born about 20 miles from where I currently live :smile: There was a really cool mini series a couple years ago about his battles with Santa Anna on I wanna say the History channel.
 

MattL

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I dig Sam Houston. A great prophetic quote for sure. He was born about 20 miles from where I currently live :smile: There was a really cool mini series a couple years ago about his battles with Santa Anna on I wanna say the History channel.
Same here. I love reading his statements during secession. He has such a loyalty to Texas and to the US, he proved massive State and National patriotism could co-exist. As well as alongside his loyalty to the slavery system and his fighting against the Northern Abolitionist movement.

I think having gone through the Texas Revolution and the political battles to get into the US he valued the membership in the US more than the other Southern States, not only did he realize what the true response from the rest of the US would be though I think he really believed and knew we were stronger together. He had a lot of wisdom even if I don't agree with some of his politics.

Fascinating you're so close. He was born in Rockbridge Co., VA right? As it turns out I have ancestry from there, Sam Houston was likely a 2nd cousin (multiple times removed, through Paxton ancestry) in fact. If you have ancestry there we might be related.

I remember that, Texas Rising where it happens Bill Paxton plays Houston (who shared the same Paxton ancestry and is also a 2nd cousin to Sam Houston). I was excited for it but when it came out I saw a lot of really bad reviews regarding the history of it, that it was even pretty bad for a tv show. I still need to watch it though, I'm good for some loose historical entertainment even if it misses the history mark.

If those reviews are right it's a bit of a missed opportunity, especially since the production values seemed to so high.
 

Viper21

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Same here. I love reading his statements during secession. He has such a loyalty to Texas and to the US, he proved massive State and National patriotism could co-exist. As well as alongside his loyalty to the slavery system and his fighting against the Northern Abolitionist movement.

I think having gone through the Texas Revolution and the political battles to get into the US he valued the membership in the US more than the other Southern States, not only did he realize what the true response from the rest of the US would be though I think he really believed and knew we were stronger together. He had a lot of wisdom even if I don't agree with some of his politics.

Fascinating you're so close. He was born in Rockbridge Co., VA right? As it turns out I have ancestry from there, Sam Houston was likely a 2nd cousin (multiple times removed, through Paxton ancestry) in fact. If you have ancestry there we might be related.

I remember that, Texas Rising where it happens Bill Paxton plays Houston (who shared the same Paxton ancestry and is also a 2nd cousin to Sam Houston). I was excited for it but when it came out I saw a lot of really bad reviews regarding the history of it, that it was even pretty bad for a tv show. I still need to watch it though, I'm good for some loose historical entertainment even if it misses the history mark.

If those reviews are right it's a bit of a missed opportunity, especially since the production values seemed to so high.
Yes, Rockbridge County, VA.

A52BirthplaceOfSamHoustonVA_thumb.jpg


12174259.jpg


I literally drive by here multiple times a month.

Paxton huh..... Connected to the Paxton House, in Buena Vista, VA (only a few miles away)...?
Paxton_House.jpg



Texas Rising.... THAT was the name of it...! I loved it. Thought it was awesome. Even if some historical liberties were taken, it was a great series....
 

MattL

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Yes, Rockbridge County, VA.

A52BirthplaceOfSamHoustonVA_thumb.jpg


12174259.jpg


I literally drive by here multiple times a month.

Paxton huh..... Connected to the Paxton House, in Buena Vista, VA (only a few miles away)...?
Paxton_House.jpg



Texas Rising.... THAT was the name of it...! I loved it. Thought it was awesome. Even if some historical liberties were taken, it was a great series....
Well you've convinced me, I'll have to watch it. Think I had DVR'd it at some point and planned to watch it. I like Bill Paxton anyways so should be entertaining.

Very interesting. So that house was built by Elisha Paxton (1st cousin 8x removed) who was the father of CSA General Elisha Paxton. Both direct ancestors of Bill Paxton as it turns out.
 

Viper21

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Well you've convinced me, I'll have to watch it. Think I had DVR'd it at some point and planned to watch it. I like Bill Paxton anyways so should be entertaining.

Very interesting. So that house was built by Elisha Paxton (1st cousin 8x removed) who was the father of CSA General Elisha Paxton. Both direct ancestors of Bill Paxton as it turns out.
It's a really awesome place (The Paxton House). I was fortunate to have been on a private tour of the house in 2016. It's pretty amazing. Knowing you are related, you'll have to visit..!
 

Lost Cause

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To get the border south slave states off the fence and into the Confederacy. How else was he going to do it?
Often argued otherwise, the 4 border states (VA, NC, TN, and AR) seceeded in direct response to FT. Sumter and Lincoln’s “Call to Arms.” Little consideration by Lincoln and his cabinet was made to their involvement until the demand for troops to invade the south was issued. General Scott who recognized their significance in his previously stated memo, was quickly discredited by the afore mentioned for playing politics.
 

MattL

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Often argued otherwise, the 4 border states (VA, NC, TN, and AR) seceeded in direct response to FT. Sumter and Lincoln’s “Call to Arms.” Little consideration by Lincoln and his cabinet was made to their involvement until the demand for troops to invade the south was issued. General Scott who recognized their significance in his previously stated memo, was quickly discredited by the afore mentioned for playing politics.
I think you just said the same thing

"To get the border south slave states off the fence and into the Confederacy."
 

MattL

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Expanded version.
Ahh ok, it sounded like you disagreeing in tone, but saying the same thing. My mistake.

I also agree. It's clear from the Virginia Secession Convention that what caused them to finally choose a side was being forced to choose whether to fight their Southern brethren, something they said they wouldn't do from the beginning. Attacking Fort Sumter and declaring "war is commenced" was a bold and aggressive call, but it secured key Confederate States that weren't clear they would join up.
 


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