Discussion The Mississippi Marine Brigade.

major bill

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Forum Host
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
 

Lubliner

Captain
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Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Location
Chattanooga, Tennessee
I am not familiar with them, but I am aware that gunboats operated along the Mississippi convoying transports. The shores along the Mississippi were heavily foliaged, and there may have been no clear line of sight to ambushes and masked batteries. I am sure they still would have the capability to land and run small raids for burning cotton and general 'looting' as you put it. Maybe that is what they were noted for. But coming under Army control could they have been given the title of 'Marine Brigade' just for distinction?
Lubliner.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
From what I read year's ago they were in practice more or a riverine pirate force rather then a sucessful counterinsurgency unit. Of course they were not Marines as they were not part of the USMC.
Yes a good idea poorly executed by incompetent officer's. Obviously it's important to use boats in counterinsurgency when practicable as was done in latter counterinsurgency campaigns.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
From what I read year's ago they were in practice more or a riverine pirate force rather then a sucessful counterinsurgency unit. Of course they were not Marines as they were not part of the USMC.
Yes a good idea poorly executed by incompetent officer's. Obviously it's important to use boats in counterinsurgency when practicable as was done in latter counterinsurgency campaigns.
Leftyhunter
I am not familiar with them, but I am aware that gunboats operated along the Mississippi convoying transports. The shores along the Mississippi were heavily foliaged, and there may have been no clear line of sight to ambushes and masked batteries. I am sure they still would have the capability to land and run small raids for burning cotton and general 'looting' as you put it. Maybe that is what they were noted for. But coming under Army control could they have been given the title of 'Marine Brigade' just for distinction?
Lubliner.
The Mississippi Marine Brigade was actually supposed to fight Confedrate guerrllas but it was just easier to loot.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
From what I read year's ago they were in practice more or a riverine pirate force rather then a sucessful counterinsurgency unit. Of course they were not Marines as they were not part of the USMC.
Yes a good idea poorly executed by incompetent officer's. Obviously it's important to use boats in counterinsurgency when practicable as was done in latter counterinsurgency campaigns.
Leftyhunter
I am not familiar with them, but I am aware that gunboats operated along the Mississippi convoying transports. The shores along the Mississippi were heavily foliaged, and there may have been no clear line of sight to ambushes and masked batteries. I am sure they still would have the capability to land and run small raids for burning cotton and general 'looting' as you put it. Maybe that is what they were noted for. But coming under Army control could they have been given the title of 'Marine Brigade' just for distinction?
Lubliner.
The Mississippi Marine Brigade was actually supposed to fight Confedrate guerrllas but it was just easier to loot.
Leftyhunter
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
https://ehistory.osu.edu/articles/fighting-ellets-ingenuity-courage-nepotism-and-corruption-0
This article also goes into great detail about naval rams which was actually first proposed by Charles Ellet who invented the ACW Rams to the Russian Navy during the Crimean War.
Leftyhunter
 

major bill

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Forum Host
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
From what I read year's ago they were in practice more or a riverine pirate force rather then a sucessful counterinsurgency unit. Of course they were not Marines as they were not part of the USMC.
Yes a good idea poorly executed by incompetent officer's. Obviously it's important to use boats in counterinsurgency when practicable as was done in latter counterinsurgency campaigns.
Leftyhunter

The Mississippi Marine Brigade was actually supposed to fight Confedrate guerrllas but it was just easier to loot.
Leftyhunter

Guerrillas are not the type to stand and fight. Perhaps destroying the guerrillis" supply base and support base is one way to fight them. Has the study of them been done a fair and unbiased way?
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
From what I read year's ago they were in practice more or a riverine pirate force rather then a sucessful counterinsurgency unit. Of course they were not Marines as they were not part of the USMC.
Yes a good idea poorly executed by incompetent officer's. Obviously it's important to use boats in counterinsurgency when practicable as was done in latter counterinsurgency campaigns.
Leftyhunter
I am not familiar with them, but I am aware that gunboats operated along the Mississippi convoying transports. The shores along the Mississippi were heavily foliaged, and there may have been no clear line of sight to ambushes and masked batteries. I am sure they still would have the capability to land and run small raids for burning cotton and general 'looting' as you put it. Maybe that is what they were noted for. But coming under Army control could they have been given the title of 'Marine Brigade' just for distinction?
Lubliner.
The Mississippi Marine Brigade was actually supposed to fight Confedrate guerrllas but it was just easier to loot.
Leftyhunter
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
https://ehistory.osu.edu/articles/fighting-ellets-ingenuity-courage-nepotism-and-corruption-0
This article also goes into great detail about naval rams which was actually first proposed by Charles Ellet who invented the ACW Rams to the Russian Navy during the Crimean War.
Leftyhunter
Guerrillas are not the type to stand and fight. Perhaps destroying the guerrillis" supply base and support base is one way to fight them. Has the study of them been done a fair and unbiased way?
The USN used Riverine craft to fight guerrllas in South Vietnam along with the the South Vietnamese Navy so there's lots of documentation. The South African Army used boats in the Caprivi Strip.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
From what I read year's ago they were in practice more or a riverine pirate force rather then a sucessful counterinsurgency unit. Of course they were not Marines as they were not part of the USMC.
Yes a good idea poorly executed by incompetent officer's. Obviously it's important to use boats in counterinsurgency when practicable as was done in latter counterinsurgency campaigns.
Leftyhunter
I am not familiar with them, but I am aware that gunboats operated along the Mississippi convoying transports. The shores along the Mississippi were heavily foliaged, and there may have been no clear line of sight to ambushes and masked batteries. I am sure they still would have the capability to land and run small raids for burning cotton and general 'looting' as you put it. Maybe that is what they were noted for. But coming under Army control could they have been given the title of 'Marine Brigade' just for distinction?
Lubliner.
The Mississippi Marine Brigade was actually supposed to fight Confedrate guerrllas but it was just easier to loot.
Leftyhunter
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
https://ehistory.osu.edu/articles/fighting-ellets-ingenuity-courage-nepotism-and-corruption-0
This article also goes into great detail about naval rams which was actually first proposed by Charles Ellet who invented the ACW Rams to the Russian Navy during the Crimean War.
Leftyhunter
Guerrillas are not the type to stand and fight. Perhaps destroying the guerrillis" supply base and support base is one way to fight them. Has the study of them been done a fair and unbiased way?
The USN used Riverine craft to fight guerrllas in South Vietnam along with the the South Vietnamese Navy so there's lots of documentation. The South African Army used boats in the Caprivi Strip.
Leftyhunter
Guerrillas are not the type to stand and fight. Perhaps destroying the guerrillis" supply base and support base is one way to fight them. Has the study of them been done a fair and unbiased way?
Not sure what you mean by study. Counterinsurgency has been written about quite extensively since 1940 at least by the US military starting with the USMC Small Wars Manual. There was no concept of counterinsurgency in the ACW in terms of hearts and minds . There were certain counterinsurgency techniques that are still used today but no concept of convincing the general population to support the counterinsurgency forces just " hard counterinsurgency" or severe retailation if they did so which is what both the Union and Confedrate forces did.
Leftyhunter
 

major bill

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Forum Host
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
They were US Volunteer Infantry ( soldiers) detailed to serve with the River fleet.AKA Ellen's Marines.
I have seen them called Ellet's Scouts. I think the auto correct monster got you on Ellen's Marines.

Thoughts on their actions at the battle at Lake Chicot.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
From what I read year's ago they were in practice more or a riverine pirate force rather then a sucessful counterinsurgency unit. Of course they were not Marines as they were not part of the USMC.
Yes a good idea poorly executed by incompetent officer's. Obviously it's important to use boats in counterinsurgency when practicable as was done in latter counterinsurgency campaigns.
Leftyhunter
I am not familiar with them, but I am aware that gunboats operated along the Mississippi convoying transports. The shores along the Mississippi were heavily foliaged, and there may have been no clear line of sight to ambushes and masked batteries. I am sure they still would have the capability to land and run small raids for burning cotton and general 'looting' as you put it. Maybe that is what they were noted for. But coming under Army control could they have been given the title of 'Marine Brigade' just for distinction?
Lubliner.
The Mississippi Marine Brigade was actually supposed to fight Confedrate guerrllas but it was just easier to loot.
Leftyhunter
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
https://ehistory.osu.edu/articles/fighting-ellets-ingenuity-courage-nepotism-and-corruption-0
This article also goes into great detail about naval rams which was actually first proposed by Charles Ellet who invented the ACW Rams to the Russian Navy during the Crimean War.
Leftyhunter
Guerrillas are not the type to stand and fight. Perhaps destroying the guerrillis" supply base and support base is one way to fight them. Has the study of them been done a fair and unbiased way?
The USN used Riverine craft to fight guerrllas in South Vietnam along with the the South Vietnamese Navy so there's lots of documentation. The South African Army used boats in the Caprivi Strip.
Leftyhunter
Guerrillas are not the type to stand and fight. Perhaps destroying the guerrillis" supply base and support base is one way to fight them. Has the study of them been done a fair and unbiased way?
Not sure what you mean by study. Counterinsurgency has been written about quite extensively since 1940 at least by the US military starting with the USMC Small Wars Manual. There was no concept of counterinsurgency in the ACW in terms of hearts and minds . There were certain counterinsurgency techniques that are still used today but no concept of convincing the general population to support the counterinsurgency forces just " hard counterinsurgency" or severe retailation if they did so which is what both the Union and Confedrate forces did.
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_Marine_Brigade
Has a naval unit the Rams did well.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
From what I read year's ago they were in practice more or a riverine pirate force rather then a sucessful counterinsurgency unit. Of course they were not Marines as they were not part of the USMC.
Yes a good idea poorly executed by incompetent officer's. Obviously it's important to use boats in counterinsurgency when practicable as was done in latter counterinsurgency campaigns.
Leftyhunter
I am not familiar with them, but I am aware that gunboats operated along the Mississippi convoying transports. The shores along the Mississippi were heavily foliaged, and there may have been no clear line of sight to ambushes and masked batteries. I am sure they still would have the capability to land and run small raids for burning cotton and general 'looting' as you put it. Maybe that is what they were noted for. But coming under Army control could they have been given the title of 'Marine Brigade' just for distinction?
Lubliner.
The Mississippi Marine Brigade was actually supposed to fight Confedrate guerrllas but it was just easier to loot.
Leftyhunter
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
https://ehistory.osu.edu/articles/fighting-ellets-ingenuity-courage-nepotism-and-corruption-0
This article also goes into great detail about naval rams which was actually first proposed by Charles Ellet who invented the ACW Rams to the Russian Navy during the Crimean War.
Leftyhunter
Guerrillas are not the type to stand and fight. Perhaps destroying the guerrillis" supply base and support base is one way to fight them. Has the study of them been done a fair and unbiased way?
The USN used Riverine craft to fight guerrllas in South Vietnam along with the the South Vietnamese Navy so there's lots of documentation. The South African Army used boats in the Caprivi Strip.
Leftyhunter
Guerrillas are not the type to stand and fight. Perhaps destroying the guerrillis" supply base and support base is one way to fight them. Has the study of them been done a fair and unbiased way?
Not sure what you mean by study. Counterinsurgency has been written about quite extensively since 1940 at least by the US military starting with the USMC Small Wars Manual. There was no concept of counterinsurgency in the ACW in terms of hearts and minds . There were certain counterinsurgency techniques that are still used today but no concept of convincing the general population to support the counterinsurgency forces just " hard counterinsurgency" or severe retailation if they did so which is what both the Union and Confedrate forces did.
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
http://millikensbend.com/mississippi-marine-brigade-makes-grisly-discoveries/
In this article the MMB makes a startling discovery the may of been exaterated.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
From what I read year's ago they were in practice more or a riverine pirate force rather then a sucessful counterinsurgency unit. Of course they were not Marines as they were not part of the USMC.
Yes a good idea poorly executed by incompetent officer's. Obviously it's important to use boats in counterinsurgency when practicable as was done in latter counterinsurgency campaigns.
Leftyhunter
I am not familiar with them, but I am aware that gunboats operated along the Mississippi convoying transports. The shores along the Mississippi were heavily foliaged, and there may have been no clear line of sight to ambushes and masked batteries. I am sure they still would have the capability to land and run small raids for burning cotton and general 'looting' as you put it. Maybe that is what they were noted for. But coming under Army control could they have been given the title of 'Marine Brigade' just for distinction?
Lubliner.
The Mississippi Marine Brigade was actually supposed to fight Confedrate guerrllas but it was just easier to loot.
Leftyhunter
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
https://ehistory.osu.edu/articles/fighting-ellets-ingenuity-courage-nepotism-and-corruption-0
This article also goes into great detail about naval rams which was actually first proposed by Charles Ellet who invented the ACW Rams to the Russian Navy during the Crimean War.
Leftyhunter
Guerrillas are not the type to stand and fight. Perhaps destroying the guerrillis" supply base and support base is one way to fight them. Has the study of them been done a fair and unbiased way?
The USN used Riverine craft to fight guerrllas in South Vietnam along with the the South Vietnamese Navy so there's lots of documentation. The South African Army used boats in the Caprivi Strip.
Leftyhunter
Guerrillas are not the type to stand and fight. Perhaps destroying the guerrillis" supply base and support base is one way to fight them. Has the study of them been done a fair and unbiased way?
Not sure what you mean by study. Counterinsurgency has been written about quite extensively since 1940 at least by the US military starting with the USMC Small Wars Manual. There was no concept of counterinsurgency in the ACW in terms of hearts and minds . There were certain counterinsurgency techniques that are still used today but no concept of convincing the general population to support the counterinsurgency forces just " hard counterinsurgency" or severe retailation if they did so which is what both the Union and Confedrate forces did.
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
http://millikensbend.com/mississippi-marine-brigade-makes-grisly-discoveries/
In this article the MMB makes a startling discovery the may of been exaterated.
Leftyhunter
Should we consider The Mississippi Marine Brigade as "marines"? One could argue they were neither marines nor from Mississippi. The Mississippi Marine Brigade were a mixed force of infantry mounted soldiers, and artillery operating from transports cruising the Mississippi River to counter Confederate guerrillas. View on how successful they were is an open question. The concept of using mounted troops being transported by boat sounds good but I am not sure the Confederate guerrillas cooperated. One would think that the infantry and artillery would slow down the Mississippi Marine Brigade to the point that they would have a hard time catching guerrillas. The Mississippi Marine Brigade has discipline and some viewed them as little more than looters. So was The Mississippi Marine Brigade a great sounding idea that did not work that well?
https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/17/the-mississippi-marine-brigade/
Also @Borderruffian might find this article interesting because the MMB fought Missouri guerrllas in Louisiana or so the author states. The author also states the MMB was similar to the US Special Forces but I would argue not at all the closest ACW comparison is the Third Indian Homeguards and more closely the French Group Mixed Army Commando's.
The MMB did not utlize indigenous personnel as did the US and French in Vietnam.
Counterinsurgency works best when local indigenous people are fighting guerrllas which was not the case of the MMB.
The MMB was a god example of how not to do counterinsurgency and General Grant did not want to command the MMB.
The MMB wasn't a bad idea but it was badly led.
Leftyhunter
 
Joined
Aug 4, 2019
The MMB had it beginning with Charles Ellet’s ram fleet. He was a private engineer who got Lincoln’s consent to form his own personal naval brigade built upon pre-existing Mississippi and Ohio river steamers. He gave his brother and several sons command of various steamers. The Navy immediately rejected him and his rams. He was somewhat dumped upon the Army, after brief independent command. He did not invent the idea of a ram but adapted it from history. Their most glorious moment was the Battle of Memphis in which two of the rams played a pivoted role. After the Confederate ram fleets were quickly destroyed, Ellet’s vessels roles turned toward scouting, raiding, communication, convoy escort, and counter-battery suppression. They were an important element in the struggle to control the Mississippi River and connected rivers south of the Ohio River. They were named after the Mississippi River not the State of Mississippi. They were called Marines because they were a combat strike teams operating from river vessels. Without their presence, Confederate flying artillery unit could operate without infantry support and ambush river traffic easily. Common Federal gunboats could not handedly operate gun elevation from their gun deck to reach the rebels on high river banks and top of levees. Ellet’s rams used their upper Hurricane deck to mass field artillery and sharpshooters for effective fire suppression. Next, they would race to the riverbank and drop a landing ramp. Next the boat would quickly discharge a squad of mounted troopers already on horse and armed. They would run down the artillery crew before they could limber up an escape. Confederates had to adapt their tactics to counter this, but they are now receiving serious counter violence.
 

Rhea Cole

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Location
Murfreesboro, Tennessee
The Mississippi Marine Brigade did not have anything to do with the US Marine Corps. As Louisiana Jayhawker posted, it was an independent command. To say that it managed to make enemies of both the US armed forces & the CSA armed forces is no exaggeration.

In the absence of organized CSA river borne resistance, it morphed into a piratical raiding force. In what amounted to little more than vengeance raids, they destroyed plantations & towns stealing cotton & anything else worth hauling off. Eventually both the US Army & navy command were thoroughly disgusted with the MS Marines & succeeded in having it disbanded.

It is an example of just how much worse the CW could have been.
 

Dead Parrott

Sergeant
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
See, it's threads like this that keep me coming here, offsetting all those 197th repeats of argument "X".

Great thread, great obscure slice-of-19th-century-human-nature topic that I now feel compelled to know more about - thanks folks!
 
Joined
Aug 4, 2019
How sad it was that Charles Ellet would die shortly after the great naval battle of Memphis from a fatal gunshot wound received in battle. He was in command of the QUEEN OF THE WEST and leading his ram fleet in an attack with himself the spearhead. His target was the GENERAL LOVELL and initially they were racing at one another, bow to bow, when at the last moment the Rebel ram turned hard to starboard (or was it port?). It appeared the Rebel commander chicken out and tried to break off but there was another report circulated that the turning was caused by one of the engines suddenly failed. Whatever the reason, the QUEEN managed by chance to catch the LOVELL midship T-bone style in the most prefect ramming attack one could have planned to have. It was claimed the LOVELL was almost cut in half but both vessels were temporarily entangled. Being an engineer, Ellet ran out of his Pilot House to assess the ramming effect maybe forgetting it was a dangerous War ongoing. He was unarmed. The enraged Rebel pilot came out of his Pilot House with a handgun and shot Ellet in the knee. That wound got rotten and he died few days later and had refused amputation.
 
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