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wbull1

First Sergeant
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Not a separate country. Then he did break the Constitution when he sent his minions South to do battle. He got his War illegally.

No. “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” Secession was unconstitutional and United States forces were attacked. I imagine even Buchanan would have responded to the attack.
 
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WJC

Major General
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But slavery was not illegal in America until the 13th Amendment.
Thanks for your response.
As I said, it was a State prerogative prior to the ratification of the 13th Amendment. Until then it was illegal in those States that banned it.
 
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WJC

Major General
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Not a separate country. Then he did break the Constitution when he sent his minions South to do battle. He got his War illegally.
No, Lincoln used military force to put down a rebellion against the legitimate government of the United States, clearly a responsibility of the Executive Branch under our Constitution. If you want a precedent, consider Washington's action during the Whiskey Rebellion.
 

Rebforever

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
No. “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” Secession was unconstitutional and United States forces were attacked. I imagine even Buchanan would have responded to the attack.
So he swore to protect the Constitution and then turned around took Soldiers
From the Northern States and have them attack the Southern States? That is illegal.
By the way, show me where the Constitution says Secession is Unconstitutional.
 
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BuckeyeWarrior

Private
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Location
Ohio
Ugg, Lincoln took out of context and misrepresented again. This is starting to become a litany. :bounce:
You were the one that misrepresented him. You claimed he was a hypocrite. He is clearly talking about the natural right of revolution. Did you even read the quote you posted? It clearly states there "and having the power, can rise up”. That is clearly a reference to the natural right of revolution. Have you studied the concept of natural rights?

If Lincoln had said any people anywhere can just proclaim their freedom from a current government and that government should just let them go, then he would be a hypocrite.

Any luck finding those quotes from Supreme Court cases or Presidents prior to Lincoln Saying secession was a constitutional right.
 

BuckeyeWarrior

Private
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Jan 1, 2020
Location
Ohio
So he swore to protect the Constitution and then turned around took Soldiers
From the Northern States and have them attack the Southern States? That is illegal.
By the way, show me where the Constitution says Secession is Unconstitutional.
The part were it says that the Constitution “is the supreme law of the land”. Also in the constitution where it says states cannot raise armies, form a confederacy, etc. That makes what the rebels did in the south unconstitutional.

The constitution also gives congress the power to suppress insurrections. Some of this power was delegated to the President through the militia acts. If you read them you will see almost everything Lincoln did was both lawful and constitutional.

Can you show me in the constitution where the President is given the power to recognize a state is out of the Union?
 

Rebforever

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
The part were it says that the Constitution “is the supreme law of the land”. Also in the constitution where it says states cannot raise armies, form a confederacy, etc. That makes what the rebels did in the south unconstitutional.

The constitution also gives congress the power to suppress insurrections. Some of this power was delegated to the President through the militia acts. If you read them you will see almost everything Lincoln did was both lawful and constitutional.

Can you show me in the constitution where the President is given the power to recognize a state is out of the Union?
That was guidance for the political bodies of the elected. There is no law in that "law of the land" above. That includes secession.
 
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WJC

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As I said, slavery was not illegal until The 13th Amendment in America.
Thanks for your response.
Your responses are repetitive but the facts remain the same: slavery was illegal where the States had banned it. Congress banned slavery in the District of Columbia in 1862 and the 13th Amendment banned it nationwide.
 
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CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Are you trying to tell me the rebel colonists were fighting for the right of blacks and Indians? I seem to remember most of the Indians and most of the blacks who actively participated fought for the British.

Yep, his intentions are pretty clear as late as December 1859.

“Then came the Black Hawk War; and I was elected a Captain of Volunteers - a success which gave me more pleasure than any I have had since.”

Abraham Lincoln, December 20, 1859.
Perfectly clear from the quote you cited. "I was elected a Captian of Volunteers..." That election is the success he described. At other times he also discussed how being chosen by his neighbors gave him pride and encouraged him in running for office.
[/QUOTE]
It is perfectly clear Lincoln took great pride in being elected a captain of volunteers in the Black Hawk War. It is interesting that he was a volunteer, not a conscript dragged kicking and screaming in protest against participating in an unjust war to drive a half-starved people of color from their ancestral homeland. No, the hypocrite took pride in his part in making Illinois safe for the white man and his progeny.
 

Rebforever

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
You, like the Southern 'leaders', can choose whatever word most comfortably eases your conscience. But that changes nothing. "secession" was a rebellion against the legitimate government of the United States.
The Southern States sure enough thought secession along with all the people at that time in history had a legal right to secede or withdraw from the North.
Lincoln turned it into a rebellion because of his “impost”, and after the war and the Deaths of over 600,000 Americans, he got his wish. Those deaths meant more to him than talking to any Commissioners. Sad.

Now off to breakfast and a noon Basketball game at JMU. :smile coffee:
 
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CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
You were the one that misrepresented him. You claimed he was a hypocrite. He is clearly talking about the natural right of revolution. Did you even read the quote you posted? It clearly states there "and having the power, can rise up”. That is clearly a reference to the natural right of revolution. Have you studied the concept of natural rights?

If Lincoln had said any people anywhere can just proclaim their freedom from a current government and that government should just let them go, then he would be a hypocrite.

Any luck finding those quotes from Supreme Court cases or Presidents prior to Lincoln Saying secession was a constitutional right.
Neither slavery nor secession is mentioned in the US Constitution. See posts 325 and 335.
 

lurid

Sergeant
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Lincoln was never willing to recognize anyone presenting as representing the Confederacy. His view was that the CSA was not a separate country and he never wavered from that position.
But did the Constitution apply to the Rebels? Did Lincoln feel obligated to follow the Constitution when dealing with the south? These are not rhetorical questions. IMO, the south was not under the Constitution because it removed itself.
 
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thomas aagaard

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Location
Denmark
But did the Constitution apply to the Rebels? Did Lincoln feel obligated to follow the Constitution when dealing with the south? These are not rhetorical questions. IMO, the south was not under the Constitution because it removed itself.
Only the problem is that under the constitution, a state don't have the authority to remove it self from the Constitution.
It is congress that got that authority. (since they control what is a state in the union)

Even South Carolina accepted that. So They did not say they had a explicit right to leave the union.

What they instead did, was to undo the political decision made by them, that got them into the Constitution in the first place.
That did make the action legal under South Carolina law. Since a state government obviously have the right to undo an earlier state government decision.
 

PapaReb

Private
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Location
Arkansas
But did the Constitution apply to the Rebels? .
Excellent question! Once again, the answer depends on which side of the secession fence you land on. Lincoln warred from the stance that the secession of states was un-constitutional. The Southern states warred from the stance that secession was their right.

10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States
Passed in Congress Sept 25, 1789 Ratified Dec 15, 1791


"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. "

Since the Constitution does not address secession would it not be a right/power reserved to the individual States?

All asked and presented in supposition, the victors have already made their decisions and written their history books.
 
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