Restricted The Lost Cause IS History!

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wbull1

First Sergeant
Official Vendor
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
This was, of course, the cause of the war if the US government claimed forts on Confederate territory what was to stop it from making other claims and demands?

Yes. Imagine the US government wanting to still own forts it owned and demanding repayment of money and the return of armaments stolen by the Confederacy. The idea reminds me of my former wife who categorized everything into one of two categories. There were things that were "hers" and things that were "ours."
 

wausaubob

Major
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
Location
Denver, CO
Hogwash.

The Southern slaveholding leadership had no power, no good cause, in which to 'legalize' their rebellion to keep, protect, and even expand, slavery.

The term 'Hypocrite' might be applied to those leaders who mouth the words "independence" where none was offered, and "sacred right" which was being denied to blacks and whites, North and South.

In other words, "they" didn't attempt ANYTHING that came close to Lincoln's words.

Unionblue
If the right of revolution is real, there were 4M people in the south that were in a position to use it. And they had potential allies in the US, Canada and Britain. So, the Civil War could also be a quiet revolution, which did have foreign assistance, from the US and tacit tolerance from Britain. From the white viewpoint it was white southerners rebelling from Yankee rule. From the viewpoint of black southerners, it probably looked like the northerners were 73 years late.
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Yes. Imagine the US government wanting to still own forts it owned and demanding repayment of money and the return of armaments stolen by the Confederacy. The idea reminds me of my former wife who categorized everything into one of two categories. There were things that were "hers" and things that were "ours."
If that was a paramount interest to the US government they would have been willing to negotiate with Confederate officials.
 
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CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Hogwash.

The Southern slaveholding leadership had no power, no good cause, in which to 'legalize' their rebellion to keep, protect, and even expand, slavery.

The term 'Hypocrite' might be applied to those leaders who mouth the words "independence" where none was offered, and "sacred right" which was being denied to blacks and whites, North and South.

In other words, "they" didn't attempt ANYTHING that came close to Lincoln's words.

Unionblue
Hogwash.

The Southern slaveholding leadership had no power, no good cause, in which to 'legalize' their rebellion to keep, protect, and even expand, slavery.

The term 'Hypocrite' might be applied to those leaders who mouth the words "independence" where none was offered, and "sacred right" which was being denied to blacks and whites, North and South.

In other words, "they" didn't attempt ANYTHING that came close to Lincoln's words.

Unionblue
“ If we were wrong in our contest, then the Declaration of Independence of 1776 was a grave mistake and the revolution to which it led was a crime. If Washington was a patriot; Lee cannot have been a rebel.”
Wade Hampton [My sentiment as well]
Abraham Lincoln's sentiment:
“Then came the Black Hawk War; and I was elected a Captain of Volunteers - a success which gave me more pleasure than any I have had since.”
Abraham Lincoln, December 20, 1859.
So much for Lincoln's concern for the downtrodden people of color.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better-- This is a most valuable, -- a most sacred right -- right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world-- Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it-- Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much of the territory as they inhabit-- More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movement."
Abraham Lincoln.

The Hypocrite, as long as he said they had the right and the people didn't attempt to exercise that right on his watch.
I think @unionblue pretty well rebuts your argument. People have the right to rebel but if a majority of the nation opposes said rebellion to bad for the rebels.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Abraham Lincoln's sentiment:
“Then came the Black Hawk War; and I was elected a Captain of Volunteers - a success which gave me more pleasure than any I have had since.”
Abraham Lincoln, December 20, 1859.
So much for Lincoln's concern for the downtrodden people of color.
Of course Davis,Lee and other Confederates also fought the Indian's. In fact the Confederate Army fought Indians in both Texas and the Indian Territory in present day Oklahoma.

Leftyhunter
 
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BuckeyeWarrior

Private
Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Location
Ohio
"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better-- This is a most valuable, -- a most sacred right -- right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world-- Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it-- Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much of the territory as they inhabit-- More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movement."
Abraham Lincoln.

The Hypocrite, as long as he said they had the right and the people didn't attempt to exercise that right on his watch.
Lincoln is talking about the natural right of revolution which is an illegal act and a resort to arms. That’s why he says “and having the power”. There is no natural right to win your revolution and governments, like people, have a natural right to self defense. In other words to suppress a rebellion.

However, unlike our founding fathers who knew they were rebelling the southern rebels tried to dress their rebellion in legality by calling it secession. Even though there was a long string of precedents that; the constitution was permanent(see James Madison and other federalists) and formed by all the people, and could only be broken by all the people, no subset of the people.( See Supreme Court cases starting with Cohens vs Virginia 1821 ), and the United States government would suppress rebellions(see George Washington’s suppression of the Whiskey rebellion and Andrew Jackson’s Nullification Proclamation).

Here’s a challenge to you. Find me one piece of evidence that shows either the federalist founding fathers, the Supreme Court, or a president before Lincoln ever said that secession was allowed under the constitution. Not the natural right of rebellion but secession.
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Of course Davis,Lee and other Confederates also fought the Indian's. In fact the Confederate Army fought Indians in both Texas and the Indian Territory in present day Oklahoma.

Leftyhunter
The only case I know where either Davis or Lee may have fought Indians was in the US army. During the War for Southern Independence. It was pretty much Confederate Indians fighting Federal Indians. In any case, how does this elevate Lincoln in your esteem?
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
Abraham Lincoln's sentiment:
“Then came the Black Hawk War; and I was elected a Captain of Volunteers - a success which gave me more pleasure than any I have had since.”
Abraham Lincoln, December 20, 1859.
So much for Lincoln's concern for the downtrodden people of color.
Wade Hampton?

Sorry, but he was wrong, Lee was wrong, and neither of them came close to emulating the American Revolution. How could they? They weren't fighting for freedom, even for themselves. They were fighting against the idea that people, white and black, could make their own "freedom of choice."

What was it Lee said? "Secession is nothing but revolution." And for the worst reason a people ever fought.

As for "Lincoln's concern for the downtrodden people of color," he more than comes out on top in this category when compared to the likes of Wade Hampton and Lee.

And I think you have misrepresented his intentions in his quote.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
 
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unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
He wouldn't meet with the csa representatives that were sent before Sumter because he considered it a rebellion. Why would he change his mind all the sudden? His aim was to keep the Union together. The ruse that was the spark for the war. The csa wasnt crawling back to papa abe, he wouldn't negotiate, would acknowledge them as a nation. So what was left?
Sanity?
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
If that was a paramount interest to the US government they would have been willing to negotiate with Confederate officials.
With resulting outcome of the Civil War, perhaps it should have been "paramount" to the Confederacy to negotiate with the US government without the arrogant chip on their shoulders. But, after stealing all those ships, payroll and mint, arms, forts, etc., plus the added inability to negotiate the release of captured US military peronnel, THEN the outright firing on the Star of the West and Ft. Sumter, perhaps the US government and the population of the rest of the United States felt no need for a paramount interest for negotiation with Confederate officials.
 
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leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
The only case I know where either Davis or Lee may have fought Indians was in the US army. During the War for Southern Independence. It was pretty much Confederate Indians fighting Federal Indians. In any case, how does this elevate Lincoln in your esteem?
Not true. In Texas Confederate Militia fought the Indians. I have quoted many times where white Confederate troops fought the Indians and killed civilians in the Indian Territory.
Leftyhunter
 
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unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
And it accurately describes what the war was really about.

To get back to the OP, the Lost Cause is not even accurately close to "what the war was really about.


"The Confederacy's fight was a noble one against overwhelming odds....

One should think about fight being a "noble one." It's phrases like this one, when we see them, that show history is not being represented. Merely a cheer for the fans in the stands of Monday morning quarterbacking.

a second American revolution where southerners were fighting for their rights and freedom against an oppressive federal government.

I love when I see this one flight of fancy. "An oppressive federal government." Where was that being hidden? Barely 16,000 men in the US Army, with two thirds of them West of the Mississippi. A handful of Federal Marshals and a part-time Attorney General. The South had full representation in the Federal government and had long held the offices of President, cabinet posts, and even had southern representation on the Supreme Court. What Constitutional rights were denied them? The most daily contact ordinary Americans had with the Federal government was when they went to the United States Post Office to pick up their mail. State governments had far more impact.

If only Gettysburg had turned out differently.

No overtime has been called that I know of and the results have been long "in."

Who knows... What if.... :frown:

One can only thank God that the Confederacy was defeated and the institution of slavery abolished, once and for all. The nation and the world is better off that the Confederacy was thrown upon the ash heap of history with other bad ideas.

I would've proudly fought in the Army of Northern Virginia!

I'm sure there were many who were actually there that felt the same way. But they were there and not residing behind a computer screen daydreaming.

Not all soldiers get to fight for a just cause they truly believe in.

There are a few of us who have. The United States of America.
Just thought I would return to the source of the thread, y'all.

Unionblue
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Unionblue
[/QUOTE]

Are you trying to tell me the rebel colonists were fighting for the right of blacks and Indians? I seem to remember most of the Indians and most of the blacks who actively participated fought for the British.

Yep, his intentions are pretty clear as late as December 1859.

“Then came the Black Hawk War; and I was elected a Captain of Volunteers - a success which gave me more pleasure than any I have had since.”

Abraham Lincoln, December 20, 1859.
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Not true. In Texas Confederate Militia fought the Indians. I have quoted many times where white Confederate troops fought the Indians and killed civilians in the Indian Territory.
Leftyhunter
I don't doubt the Texas militia fought against the Comanches on the western frontier. The Comanches fought for themselves, not for either CS or the US.
 
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Florida Rebel

Private
Joined
May 31, 2019
Hooray for more "Lost Cause" friends! We need more because the southern cause was just and very real. And since less than 20% of the southern population owned slaves, you can't say the entire southen nation fought a war to protect slavery. By the way, I found a National Park Ranger named Matt Atkinson who many of you would love to meet! By the way, Matt doesn't seem to like Longstreet either... Matt is from Mississippi but now lives in Gettysburg. Matt is 48 years old and a graduate of 'Ole Miss. If you google him, you will see a number of lectures he has done - which you can hear and see as well as be with him for numerous Gettysburg battlefield tours. He is outstanding! If you favor the South and revere General Lee as I do, you will enjoy listening to all of Matt's talks.
 
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