Lee The Civil War: Conflicted Loyalties of Robert E. Lee

I've never read anything in any of Lee's letters or writings or in his biographies that made him any more than seeing slavery as a necessary evil, certainly I don't recall anything about slavery entering in his personal decision to go with Virginia, could you please provide sources that might state otherwise?
Lee saw slavery as something that should end, but ( I'm paraphrasing here) in Gods own time, so who knows how long that could take..I don't see slavery itself being a part of Lee's decesion, though I would think that he would have some concern with how it would hurt the family...
 
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You said,

"We are going round and round here. Lee joined the Confederacy. That made him a suporter of slavery, even if he never said anything explicitly against it. Lee regarded Black people as inferior to white people - therfe are many sources substantiating this. His view of slavery as "a necessary evil," is often quoted."

If joining the Confederacy made someone a supporter of the institution of slavery, then almost every Southerner by your statement would fit the bill. You have applied guilt by association.

Considering that the stated goal of the side they were fighting for was the protection and expansion of slavery, every soldier who
took up arms in defense of the CSA was fighting for slavery.

R
 
I've never read anything in any of Lee's letters or writings or in his biographies that made him any more than seeing slavery as a necessary evil, certainly I don't recall anything about slavery entering in his personal decision to go with Virginia, could you please provide sources that might state otherwise?

Its one thing to be a common soldier. It's another to accept command of an Army.

Lee understood exactly what was going on.

Lee knew what the CSA stood for. He knew what he was fighting for.

He was fighting to protect the southern way of life, or more precisely, the institution of slavery from the threat of Northern aggression.
 
Either you are being sarcastic or are in total ignorance. George Washington owned many slaves as did his wife, Martha.
He freed all the ones he owned at his death, he asked Martha free all hers at her death. She freed them sooner, before she died. It is one of the reasons Mt. Vernon went to hell.
Jefferson, of course, was notorious for dying bankrupt, and freeing only five of his slaves. All the others (I think about 190) were sold. It caused a lot of anger in Charlottesville because some of them were related to various white families.
And many of them had lived there all their lives and were known very well in the town. A lot of families were broken up in this sale, some of them forever.
There are numerous sources for this, even Wiki....

Your first guess was spot on but thanks for telling me what I knew anyway. That may sound sarcastic but in this case that was not my end goal.
 
Please keep to the topic and either start a new thread on Lee and Slavery or resurrect one of the other threads. IMHO a poster did a drive by post and left the area, leaving others to fight over his post.

How can we discuss Lee and his "divided loyalties" without bringing up his views on slavery? It seems that the topic would part and parcel in understanding Lee and motivations for his actions. He was raised as a slave owner and in the slavery system, it had to come into play in his decision to "go South".
 
How can we discuss Lee and his "divided loyalties" without bringing up his views on slavery? It seems that the topic would part and parcel in understanding Lee and motivations for his actions. He was raised as a slave owner and in the slavery system, it had to come into play in his decision to "go South".

Easy -- on a new thread or one of the existing threads.
 
How can we discuss Lee and his "divided loyalties" without bringing up his views on slavery? It seems that the topic would part and parcel in understanding Lee and motivations for his actions. He was raised as a slave owner and in the slavery system, it had to come into play in his decision to "go South".

I was about to make the same point. Thank you for doing it for me with such perfect clarity. :smile:

I only have this to add: If the discussion of Lee's "Conflicted Loyalties" is limited to a choice between the "Union or Virginia" then there really is nothing to discuss. The fact is, he chose Virginia over the Union. That's all there is to it.

I just don't think it's that simple.
 
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I was about to make the same point. Thank you for doing it for me with such perfect clarity. :smile:

I only have this to add: If the discussion of Lee's "Conflicted Loyalties" is limited to a choice between the "Union or Virginia" then there really is nothing to discuss. He chose Virginia over the Union. That's all there is to it.

I just don't think it's that simple.

It is very very simple. Pick one of the old Lee and slave threads and refresh it or start a new thread..

Thank You.
 
I kinda think "leave it to the will of providence" to be a cop out. Kinda analagous to "kill them all and let God sort them out."
 
I kinda think "leave it to the will of providence" to be a cop out. Kinda analagous to "kill them all and let God sort them out."

Lee was a military man, not a politician. The vast majority of Americans, North and South, were willing to "leave it to the will of providence" rather than doing anything about it themselves. The "cop-out" on the issue of slavery was America's legacy.
 
You said,

"We are going round and round here. Lee joined the Confederacy. That made him a suporter of slavery, even if he never said anything explicitly against it. Lee regarded Black people as inferior to white people - therfe are many sources substantiating this. His view of slavery as "a necessary evil," is often quoted."

If joining the Confederacy made someone a supporter of the institution of slavery, then almost every Southerner by your statement would fit the bill. You have applied guilt by association.

First as to Lee being a supporter of slavery:

"Considering the relation of master and slave, controlled by humane laws and influenced by Christianity and an enlightened public sentiment, as the best that can exist between the white and black races while intermingled as at present in this country, I would deprecate any sudden disturbance of that relation unless it be necessary to avert a greater calamity to both. I should therefore prefer to rely upon our white population to preserve the ratio between our forces and those of the enemy, which experience has shown to be safe. But in view of the preparations of our enemies, it is our duty to provide for continued war and not for a battle or a campaign, and I fear that we cannot accomplish this without overtaxing the capacity of our white population." [Robert E. Lee to Andrew Hunter, 11 Jan 1865]

Full letter here: http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/robert-e-lee-to-andrew.html

As I read this letter I see a supporter of slavery who has reluctantly come to the conclusion that some slaves will have to be freed to keep the rest in chains. However, he does recognize it is possible this will lead to the collapse of the entire institution: "If it end in subverting slavery it will be accomplished by ourselves, and we can devise the means of alleviating the evil consequences to both races. I think, therefore, we must decide whether slavery shall be extinguished by our enemies and the slaves be used against us, or use them ourselves at the risk of the effects which must be produced upon our social institutions."

His plan, though, is to only free those who would fight for the confederacy and later their families: "There have been formidable armies composed of men having no interest in the cause for which they fought beyond their pay or the hope of plunder. But it is certain that the surest foundation upon which the fidelity of an army can rest, especially in a service which imposes peculiar hardships and privations, is the personal interest of the soldier in the issue of the contest. Such an interest we can give our negroes by giving immediate freedom to all who enlist, and freedom at the end of the war to the families of those who discharge their duties faithfully (whether they survive or not), together with the privilege of residing at the South."

Coming at this late date, January of 1865, it is obvious he has exhausted every other means of filling the ranks and this is his last option. "I should therefore prefer to rely upon our white population to preserve the ratio between our forces and those of the enemy, which experience has shown to be safe."

Secondly, as to the confederacy. Its own vice president said that its cornerstone was slavery and ****, which Lee in this letter is supporting.

Third, Lee voluntarily accepted an offered commission. He wasn't conscripted. Someone who knowingly joins an entity voluntarily then supports that entity's goals. Every southerner who joined the confederacy without being conscripted, then, made a conscious decision to support that entity's goals. The goal was independence in order to preserve the institution of slavery.

When Lee was pacing back and forth in his house before sitting down to write his resignation from the US Army, I am quite sure part of his angst was not that he would have to fight for slavery. The available evidence indicates he wouldn't have a problem with that. His angst no doubt was over leaving the US Army that he had loved being a part of, possibly fighting against friends, and committing treason against the United States weighed against fighting against the south, possibly against his family in Virginia, and for a Republican administration. It is simply not reasonable to suggest Lee had no idea why the confederate states had seceded. Even in the oft-quoted letter to his wife he talks about the conflict over slavery, and there is no doubt that he is in favor of the proslavery side. "The views of the Pres: of the Systematic & progressive efforts of certain people of the North, to interfere with & change the domestic institutions of the South, are truthfully & faithfully expressed. The Consequences of their plans & purposes are also clearly set forth, & they must also be aware, that their object is both unlawful & entirely foreign to them & their duty; for which they are irresponsible & unaccountable; & Can only be accomplished by them through the agency of a Civil & Servile war."

Full text here: http://fair-use.org/robert-e-lee/letter-to-his-wife-on-slavery

Again, reading this letter I see someone supporting slavery as it existed at that time, even though he calls it an "evil." He believes freeing the slaves at that point in time would be a greater evil. "Although the Abolitionist must know this, & must See that he has neither the right or power of operating except by moral means & suasion, & if he means well to the slave, he must not Create angry feelings in the Master; that although he may not approve the mode which it pleases Providence to accomplish its purposes, the result will nevertheless be the same; that the reasons he gives for interference in what he has no Concern, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbors when we disapprove their Conduct; Still I fear he will persevere in his evil Course."

How many more generations of people, how many millions more people must suffer in bondage? Lee doesn't really care.
"How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild& melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy. This influence though slow, is sure. The doctrines & miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years, to Convert but a small part of the human race, & even among Christian nations, what gross errors still exist! While we see the Course of the final abolition of human Slavery is onward, & we give it the aid of our prayers & all justifiable means in our power, we must leave the progress as well as the result in his hands who sees the end; who Chooses to work by slow influences; & with whom two thousand years are but as a Single day."

So yes, Lee supported slavery, and so did every southerner who joined the confederacy, whether that was what motivated them to join or not, because they all knew what it was about. Certainly you'll see a number who will say they joined because their homeland was being invaded. But they knowingly joined an enitity they knew was perpetuating slavery, so by joining it they accepted it and its goals.
 
Lee's decision was visceral, it had little to do with any profound thought processes. His main concern, and source of most of his anxieties, mostly concerned how and when to resign.
 
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