The Bombay Marine offer to the CS Government.

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rebelatsea

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Whatever port the two frigates used as a base would become the centre of a major fleet operation fairly quickly I should imagine.
 

vikingbear

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Hi guys,
They would have made a great "fleet in being though", just look at WW I, after Jutland when the German fleet sat out the rest of the war the RM was forced to keep up their distance blockade (With all that stress on the men and the ships for being at sea for so long). When the us entered the war in 1917. besides the dd's and other asw ships, to help out the us dispatcher 2 of the older coal buring bb to northern island but also a battle sq of older bb's to operate with the grand fleet.
This kept the operational numbers up allowing the Brits to to get the repairs cough up.

You guys are right. a couple of raids against a few northern ports would have created such a .......storm that the political pressure would force the north to re direct men and material to first, building up a coastal defense force at the expense of delaying the blockading forces being established. but would that have delayed the building up of the western rivers force?giving the south time to build up their own river fleets? Even if not fully manned, spread out among the deep water ports these ships would cause a major problems maybe forcing the North to establish a long blockade with a few small fast ships only close in.
the North would have been forced to build other types of '' fleets"also, further delaying war Plans of both the Army and navy. The USN/ had the factories/people to build/convert ships but this takes time.
the composition of the fleet would change though.

They would have had to develop that Northern defense force, which was under Army control There were developed plans (for this and had been for years This first step was to convert merchant shipping into war ships (look at what the south did, both were trained by the same people)like floating batteries out of sailing ships, gb's out of steamers ( like western river warships (?) As some one wrote on this blog, Elliots's rams were first proposed for harbor defense. The second phase would be constructed vessels, like floating batteries, 2 gun SW hay-clad double ended GB's, fire rafts. Ericsson had promised to design (if needed) a small ironclad GB for the defense of the north ( to operate in Groups).




At this stage the blockading force would have been covered by wooden war ships, like the 1863 building plan

Later these ships would have to be supported by offshore ironclads. The designer of the Keokek later claimed that before Hampton Roades navy brass had talked about buying a half of dozen more. Her first captain in a report stated that this design inlarged 20 feet would make the best ocean iron clad,

A defensive force would be needed on the Pacific coast, espically guarding the gold shipments.

More raiders being sent out would force the establishment of a convoy system to make sure the war shipments made it north.

By the time the North could attack the southern coast, a special Force would have to be built, like the British in the Crimean war because by then it could be well guarded by ML cannon of longe range.

Oh ya, also by this time these SW steamers could be well on the way to be converted into ironclads similar to John's plan.
 

vikingbear

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One last thing, the north still would have more manpower and a good chance that the population wound be more supported of old Abe and the Gov. Cities being bombarded and people getting killed gives people a whole new prospective.
on wars It is no longer down there but in their own back yard,,,,,,,,,,,

GRIZZ
 
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Elennsar

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I'm really not seeing why a defensive force is needed on the Pacific coast or convoying or any other measures as if this suddenly makes the Confederacy a major naval power with a long reach.

These are not sounding like ideal cruisers from the comments of other users, and even if they could carry heavy firepower their ability to suck it up isn't especially awesome - so what's to stop them from being treated as any other short legged, overgunned (if simply chasing merchant ships) commerce raiders - and not as some kind of nightmare ships?'
 

rebelatsea

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Please remember Gents , that there were only two immediately available, even if they were two big relatively fast warships, the other vessels were still either in India or on their way back to England.
Had the CSN obtained, equipped, manned, and operated all ten, then we are talking a different scenario.
 

rebelatsea

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The only scenario that immediately comes to mind in which the CSN might have got all ten would have been if Britain had opted for involvement in the War. Equiopping and sending those ships to the South would be seen as a quick ( and cheap) way to bolster the CSN. However it doesn't answer how they would be manned and officered.
 
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Elennsar

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Please remember Gents , that there were only two immediately available, even if they were two big relatively fast warships, the other vessels were still either in India or on their way back to England.
Had the CSN obtained, equipped, manned, and operated all ten, then we are talking a different scenario.
Could the CSN have equipped, manned, and operated all ten? That sounds like it would be a pretty major thing to bite off even if the "obtained" is fairly feasible given enough will (and British cooperation).
 

rebelatsea

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Short
Could the CSN have equipped, manned, and operated all ten? That sounds like it would be a pretty major thing to bite off even if the "obtained" is fairly feasible given enough will (and British cooperation).
The short answer is no, without outside assistance.
 

Elennsar

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And that level of outside assistance sounds like these ships are only part of the issue, if I understand you correctly.
 
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rebelatsea

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Indeed, without New Orleans and Gosport Navy Yard with their docking and ancilliary facilities, where would the CSN be able to service and maintain such a fleet ?
 

vikingbear

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I'm really not seeing why a defensive force is needed on the Pacific coast or convoying or any other measures as if this suddenly makes the Confederacy a major naval power with a long reach.

These are not sounding like ideal cruisers from the comments of other users, and even if they could carry heavy firepower their ability to suck it up isn't especially awesome - so what's to stop them from being treated as any other short legged, overgunned (if simply chasing merchant ships) commerce raiders - and not as some kind of nightmare ships?'
Was thinking of the effect on the public if the ships were able to raid a northern port or two. The pacific coast would not need much, just a couple of aux GB spread along the west coast, This would be more to control public outcry and more of showing the flag, Based this on post war reports from the spanish american war, Public out cry and fear was so bad that the navy was forced to form a system of defense to calm the public. (even thought the navy did not feel there was any danger, political pressure dictated other wise). Will have to retrieve my notes on the subject because was supprised at the cause and effect levels reached. Feel that being only ca 30 years later public reaction would be similar.
Washington was worried about loosing a gold shipment. The ship on the west coast carried a force of armed volunteers and a cannon or two and the east coast ship was escorted by a navy ship,
There was at least one attempt to capt the gold shipment and ship on the west coast. but jt was discovered and most of the raiders captured. Also there was 2 known priveteers on the west coast. One was siezed and the other fitting out in West Canada was siezed by the Canadian gov,'
A better example of a fleet in being was Norway WWII, A German BB worried the RN so muxh that ther were forced to keep a large number of ships tied up to defend against her,

So, even if one ship was in a southern port the North would be forced to keep a forced tied up blockading that one port, Any ship tied up would be one less on the blockade, possably early on allowing more supplies to get through.

GRIZZ
 
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Elennsar

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The Spanish American war is vs. a considerably more threatening fleet than the CSA - even counting than one or two kinda underwhelming ships that can easily be blockaded in their home ports - had.

Tirpitz was a major problem if it got loose. These ships barely qualify as more problematic than any port which can hold them already is for blockade duty.
 

vikingbear

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The Spanish American war is vs. a considerably more threatening fleet than the CSA - even counting than one or two kinda underwhelming ships that can easily be blockaded in their home ports - had.

Tirpitz was a major problem if it got loose. These ships barely qualify as more problematic than any port which can hold them already is for blockade duty.
Sorry took so long to get back to you killed my back when my "3" year old snow blower conked out and the pain pills they give you do not really help (me anyways).

Yes and no. The Spanish Navy had a established fleet with a long history (just love
their old huge liners) but in truth, their ships were in marginal shape, the crews moral was poor, their commander did not believe he could win a battle and their newest cruiser carried wooden guns (10'' guns never placed on board). That said, it did not mean they would not fight, just look at their history, but if some one does not believe they can not win, they will not.
But that is the unknown factor, which no american knew at the time. The people of this country were ****** because (right or wrong) they believed the Spanish had destroyed the Maine and they wanted revenge. (but that is another story, forget that last part).

Am basing this on the unknown factor or the fog of war. Sherman once said "I am smarter than grant but in one way he beats me all around (something like that), he doesn't care where the other enemy is but that bothers me all to hell".

As we look back at past events we can see almost the total picture (or the version that was passed on anyways) not what that guy know (or thought he knew) and could only make the best guess by this information.
For myself, it took me a while to understand this, always was thinking why did they not do it this way or that ............

Yes, you and I know these ships for what they were, but how about that Captain standing out side of his wheel house of his converted "soapbox", peering through his telescope trying to see through the fog at what might be heading his way,,,,,,,,,sorry.......side effect of having a active thinking process...... How much good info would he really have? Bits of facts and fiction maybe. It would be too early in the war for a spy service. This info or lack of would affect his decising making process..........and this is a military man (or just think of "ram fever").

So lets head North, you are in Philie or Boston or Portland.........a port town walking to get a paper, you hear it before you turn the corner, groups of people standing around loudly talking, reading news papers, people rushing this way and that......you speed up wounding what is going on! Through the voices you pick up words.......attacked......burning.......destroyed....! Then you are close enough to hear NYC has been attacked! You snatch a news paper and quickly read the headlines "NYC attacked! Ships destroyed! (remenber these news papers were more like those check out rags of today who will say anything to sell a copy). We have a ft , is it armed? Are we going to be attacked next? ????????? Most people have no experience with military matters, so really do not know or understand,
Human nature Expect the worst. invent the worst if you don't know, believe rumors feed off other people's behaviors..........Not logical but true....

Enought of the dribble........anyway that is the point that am coming from, not logical because from only that viewpoint we can agree......but am including the human emotional factor which is anything but logical and is always influencing the way people feel and act.
Before you believe am in la la land let me explain....It is said that we process information based up our past experiences and since I spent 30 (God.......) + years working (in a professional way) with people and kids (teenage girls.........God shoot me!) including how emotional factors influence their behavior is always included when developing a answer.
Usually forget this but sometimes say it to explain from what point of view the statement is from.................Now that I have totally confused everybody............See ya


GRIZZ
 
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Elennsar

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Sorry took so long to get back to you killed my back when my "3" year old snow blower conked out and the pain pills they give you do not really help (me anyways).

Yes and no. The Spanish Navy had a established fleet with a long history (just love
their old huge liners) but in truth, their ships were in marginal shape, the crews moral was poor, their commander did not believe he could win a battle and their newest cruiser carried wooden guns (10'' guns never placed on board). That said, it did not mean they would not fight, just look at their history, but if some one does not believe they can not win, they will not.
But that is the unknown factor, which no american knew at the time. The people of this country were ****** because (right or wrong) they believed the Spanish had destroyed the Maine and they wanted revenge. (but that is another story, forget that last part).
No worries on the delayed response, especially given my response to you is a few days late (since I don't check this subforum as much)

But would you say that these two ships are a greater threat to the US's commerce and coast defense than the Spanish navy there? I'm not saying the Spanish Navy was a huge deal - just more worrisome and more concrete than two ships its hard to tell where the CSA would even get the crews and supplies for (and thus be able to actually send them out to cause panic and damage).

So lets head North, you are in Philie or Boston or Portland.........a port town walking to get a paper, you hear it before you turn the corner, groups of people standing around loudly talking, reading news papers, people rushing this way and that......you speed up wounding what is going on! Through the voices you pick up words.......attacked......burning.......destroyed....! Then you are close enough to hear NYC has been attacked! You snatch a news paper and quickly read the headlines "NYC attacked! Ships destroyed! (remenber these news papers were more like those check out rags of today who will say anything to sell a copy). We have a ft , is it armed? Are we going to be attacked next? ????????? Most people have no experience with military matters, so really do not know or understand,
Human nature Expect the worst. invent the worst if you don't know, believe rumors feed off other people's behaviors..........Not logical but true....
I really do not see this happening unless these ships actually cause enough damage to make anyone more alarmed than they were by - say - the Virginia, which didn't see massive effort made to draw ships and funds and materials to coast defense or defending the Pacific or anything like that. Sure, people were jumpy. But human nature can be overly optimistic as well as overly timid, and these ships have to get past more than just converted soapboxes to be in a position anyone wonders if they're heading for New York or Boston or whatever.
 

vikingbear

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Hello,
After more digging I'm back (and also did not kill my back this time!)' On my deck the snow was half way up my torso!

Read somewhere that Wells told the state governors and port cities to go see they army, as coast defense was under army control at the time (Stanton sent a letter to the states telling them all they were on their own). The Gov's must have loved that!
It could have gone either way. what do they say about history! Truth is stranger than fiction.
The panic of the Va. was short lived, only for one day. The Monitor showed up that night (talk about timing) and the battle was the next day. Than what happened. Later the Monitor kind of drifted into shallow water while the crew was taken care of the Capt. when the Va. see's that, they say "can't get to her because the Monitor is hiding in shallow water and the tide is going out so we better go home. By the time the Monitor heads back towards where the battle was, the Va. is heading home,........so, what does the northern news papers tell their readers? " The Monitor defeated that evil bestie''. because they only reported one side.
So that day started crazy (remember how Wells describes Stanton?) even after being told that the Va's draft was too deep to make it up to Washington. The next day everything goes back to normal because the newspapers tell the public "We're safe the Monitor won"! Lots of People forget the bad, remember the good.
All I'm saying is that all kinds of things influence people and ours are only two possible outcomes of a hundred different outcomes.
Crazy how topics evolve, this subject came about when we were trying to come up with what the best use of these out of date PW frigates. Felt the best way was to disrupt the forming of the blockade.

(I) Raid along the northern coast and attack various ports to cause a general panic and force a use of Union ships to protect the ports and chase the raiders. (Thus allowing more supplies to make it to southern ports).
(II) Fleet in being. Based on 1 or two ports to force a large number of ships to be stationed offshore. Active defense.Keep ships active, even with small crews to place extra strain on blockaders. Engage blockaders whenever possible.

(III). Convert to Ironclad (John's plan).

GRIZZ
 

vikingbear

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Sorry missed one

or (IV) Raze to use less crew, make ship lighter faster.

Just thought of this one.
(V) Remove masts, make a port Block ship. Moveable floating battery to help block runners in and out.

These ships carrying a limited amount of supplies and coal could carry a larger number of gun and use less real seamen,

GRIZZ
 
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USS ALASKA

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Trenholms bought Assaaye and Punjaub without authority from Stephen Mallory, who quite rightly didn't want them because a) they were too big and deep draught for southern ports and harbours, and b) paddle wheel seagoing warships were old technology. The 20 68pdrs that came with them were another thing entirely and some at least found their way to the South.
Sir, didn't want to derail your Laird Ram thread with Bombay Marine questions so decided to perform the role of the Necromancer and kick start this one again...after 3 years and 8 months.

Given the dust-up caused by 'hull number 290', did this purchase create any heated diplomatic exchanges? Whereas '290' had the veil of legitimacy with no 'warlike equipment' as built, (nudge, nudge, wink, wink ), there was no question about the Bombay Marine vessels.

2089

Thanks for the help!
USS ALASKA
 
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USS ALASKA

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The disposition of their warships is a topic I've never run across.
Found a reference in 'Shipbuilding and Shipping Record - Volume 66 - Page 399', that stated that Punjaub was converted to sail-only and ended her days as the fast clipper 'Tweed'

https://books.google.com/books?id=vKc-AQAAIAAJ&q=Steam-Frigate+Punjaub&dq=Steam-Frigate+Punjaub&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj44Z2w9OLcAhVqneAKHW4kA-4Q6AEIRjAF

On 18 July 1888 the ship was dismasted off Algoa Bay and was towed to shore, but a subsequent storm drove her aground and she was damaged beyond economic repair.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjaub_(ship)

Same ship?

Cheers,
USS ALASKA
 
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