T or F? Official Records: No Confederate ever references having black soldiers under his command

Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

jgoodguy

Banished Forever
-:- A Mime -:-
is a terrible thing...
Don’t feed the Mime
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
35,522
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
I would also be curious as to their opinion of the dozen or so reports of Union officers and political leaders that mention armed Black men among Confederate forces ???
My opinion is to discount newspaper reports, editorial, political leaders with agenda and anything but named in the place official reports.
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

jgoodguy

Banished Forever
-:- A Mime -:-
is a terrible thing...
Don’t feed the Mime
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
35,522
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
I appreciate your unsolicited opinion ! Comes with the authority I suppose. I was speaking of the OR !
Thanks
You did not post ORs. I jumped to a conclusion your were referring to extra OR references.
you said
I would also be curious as to their opinion of the dozen or so reports of Union officers and political leaders that mention armed Black men among Confederate forces ???
Political leaders are quoted mentioning Black Confederates in the ORs? That sounds more like newspapers than the OR.
The source inspiring the OP says there are 7 not a "dozen or so" which prompted to jump to a conclusion.

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/articles/black-confederates
This is not to say that no black man ever fired a gun for the Confederacy. To be specific, in the “Official Records of the War of the Rebellion,” a collection of military records from both sides which spans more than 50 volumes and more than 50,000 pages, there are a total of seven Union eyewitness reports of black Confederates. Three of these reports mention black men shooting at Union soldiers, one report mentions capturing a handful of armed black men along with some soldiers, and the other three reports mention seeing unarmed black laborers. There is no record of Union soldiers encountering an all-black line of battle or anything close to it.​

Thanks for clearing it up.
 

major bill

Colonel
Forum Host
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
16,154
No one has yet disproved the Official Records of the War of the Rebellion contain no Confederate records. I will have to digest what this indicates.
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

jgoodguy

Banished Forever
-:- A Mime -:-
is a terrible thing...
Don’t feed the Mime
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
35,522
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
More from
Black Confederates.
Even beyond the Official Records, there is no known letter, diary entry, or any other primary source in which a Confederate mentions serving with black soldiers.

In the years shortly after the war, hundreds of prominent Southerners wrote and spoke about “the Lost Cause,” a vision of the war in which the South was fighting to secure state rights and in which slavery was a secondary concern. None of these Southerners ever mentioned black soldiers fighting for the South, although it would have been a good time to present such evidence if there was any truth behind it.
If the ORs were silent but there were non ORs Sources evidencing Black Confederates, then that indicates a flaw in the ORs. Both silences speak loudly that Black Confederates were almost non existent.
 

jgoodguy

Banished Forever
-:- A Mime -:-
is a terrible thing...
Don’t feed the Mime
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
35,522
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
No one has yet disproved the Official Records of the War of the Rebellion contain no Confederate records. I will have to digest what this indicates.
I think the argument is along the lines of while there are CSA records in the ORs, the ones needed to confirm Black Confederates are missing. That is one reason that I usually post there is little evidence of the existence of Black Confederates because it is hard to prove evidence is not missing.
 

jgoodguy

Banished Forever
-:- A Mime -:-
is a terrible thing...
Don’t feed the Mime
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
35,522
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
Will someone post the Union sightings that meet the criteria of "there are a total of seven Union eyewitness reports of black Confederates".
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

jgoodguy

Banished Forever
-:- A Mime -:-
is a terrible thing...
Don’t feed the Mime
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
35,522
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
I don't think that belongs in this thread.
Maybe, but "there are a total of seven Union eyewitness reports of black Confederates" is in the article referenced by the OP. If there are more than 7, that calls into question the accuracy of the article. It also addresses the standards of the article.
 

ForeverFree

Major
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
8,873
Location
District of Columbia
This thread is getting crazy.

1) The Civil War Trust article titled Black Confederates: Truth and Legend says this:

This is not to say that no black man ever fired a gun for the Confederacy. To be specific, in the “Official Records of the War of the Rebellion,” a collection of military records from both sides which spans more than 50 volumes and more than 50,000 pages, there are a total of seven Union eyewitness reports of black Confederates. Three of these reports mention black men shooting at Union soldiers, one report mentions capturing a handful of armed black men along with some soldiers, and the other three reports mention seeing unarmed black laborers. There is no record of Union soldiers encountering an all-black line of battle or anything close to it.

In those same Official Records, no Confederate ever references having black soldiers under his command or in his unit, although references to black laborers are common.
This claim that In those Official Records, no Confederate ever references having black soldiers under his command or in his unit is either true or false. Yet there is a whole bunch of discussion that has nothing to do with whether or not the claim made by the CWT is true.

2) RE the question from @east tennessee roots: "I would also be curious as to their opinion of the dozen or so reports of Union officers and political leaders that mention armed Black men among Confederate forces ???"

That is a question for another thread. If people want to look at situations where Union men and political leaders cite Black Confederates in the OR, feel free in that thread. (I strike through political leaders because the Civil War Trust article makes no comment on that. Clearly they are focusing on what military men are saying.)

3) It seems like people are wanting to use this thread to litigate whether or not there are black Confederates, and discuss the whole range of available evidence concerning them. There are plenty of other threads for that. Again: the Civil War Trust made a claim, and it is either true or false. We have experts in the history on this forum, I am curious to see if anybody has seen evidence that the statement is true or false.

If the claim cannot be refuted, it might be because it is true. And if true, folks need to look at this and other available evidence to interpret what that means.

EDIT: If folks want to open a thread to show non-OR instances of Confederates referencing black man under their command or in their units, that's fine too. What I want to avoid is this thread being all things to all people about Black Confederates. I don't understand why it is so hard to just stay on topic about this.

- Alan
 
Last edited:
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

jgoodguy

Banished Forever
-:- A Mime -:-
is a terrible thing...
Don’t feed the Mime
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
35,522
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
This thread is getting crazy.

1) The Civil War Trust article titled Black Confederates: Truth and Legend says this:

This is not to say that no black man ever fired a gun for the Confederacy. To be specific, in the “Official Records of the War of the Rebellion,” a collection of military records from both sides which spans more than 50 volumes and more than 50,000 pages, there are a total of seven Union eyewitness reports of black Confederates. Three of these reports mention black men shooting at Union soldiers, one report mentions capturing a handful of armed black men along with some soldiers, and the other three reports mention seeing unarmed black laborers. There is no record of Union soldiers encountering an all-black line of battle or anything close to it.

In those same Official Records, no Confederate ever references having black soldiers under his command or in his unit, although references to black laborers are common.
This claim that In those Official Records, no Confederate ever references having black soldiers under his command or in his unit is either true or false. Yet there is a whole bunch of discussion that has nothing to do with whether or not the claim made by the CWT is true.

2) RE the question from @east tennessee roots: "I would also be curious as to their opinion of the dozen or so reports of Union officers and political leaders that mention armed Black men among Confederate forces ???"

That is a question for another thread. If people want to look at situations where Union men and political leaders cite Black Confederates in the OR, feel free in that thread. (I strike through political leaders because the Civil War Trust article makes no comment on that. Clearly they are focusing on what military men are saying.)

3) It seems like people are wanting to use this thread to litigate whether or not there are black Confederates, and discuss the whole range of available evidence concerning them. There are plenty of other threads for that. Again: the Civil War Trust made a claim, and it is either true or false. We have experts in the history on this forum, I am curious to see if anybody has seen evidence that the statement is true or false.

If the claim cannot be refuted, it might be because it is true. And if true, folks need to look at this and other available evidence to interpret what that means.

EDIT: If folks want to open a thread to show non-OR instances of Confederates referencing black man under their command or in their units, that's fine too. What I want to avoid is this thread being all things to all people about Black Confederates. I don't understand why it is so hard to just stay on topic about this.

- Alan
If you feel anyone's post is off topic including mine, it will be moved to the side bar thread. Just let a mod know.
 

Belle Montgomery

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
2,535
Location
44022
This is from a Civil War Trust article titled Black Confederates: Truth and Legend:

This is not to say that no black man ever fired a gun for the Confederacy. To be specific, in the “Official Records of the War of the Rebellion,” a collection of military records from both sides which spans more than 50 volumes and more than 50,000 pages, there are a total of seven Union eyewitness reports of black Confederates. Three of these reports mention black men shooting at Union soldiers, one report mentions capturing a handful of armed black men along with some soldiers, and the other three reports mention seeing unarmed black laborers. There is no record of Union soldiers encountering an all-black line of battle or anything close to it.

In those same Official Records, no Confederate ever references having black soldiers under his command or in his unit, although references to black laborers are common.

The non-existence of black combat units is further indicated by the records of debates in the Confederate Congress over the issue of black enlistment. The idea was repeatedly rejected until, on March 13, 1865, the Confederate Congress passed a law to allow black men to serve in combat roles, although with the provision “that nothing in this act shall be construed to authorize a change in the relation which the said slaves shall bear toward their owners,” i.e. that black soldiers would still be slaves.​

Is this true - that no Confederate ever references having black soldiers under his command or in his unit in the Official Records? Has anyone ever encountered such in their reading of the Records? I'm looking for cases where the black men involved are clearly soldiers, NOT servants or cooks. Please give the name of the unit if it appears in the Records.

Just for the sake of discussion, the case of the Louisiana Native Guards or state militia units can be included in this thread. They would not be considered Confederate army units and probably would not have been counted as soldiers as noted in the Civil War Trust article. But they could conceivably operate under a Confederate officer.

But please do not include, for example, a "regiment" of laborers. The Civil War Trust is specifically referring to soldiers, not laborers. We do know that the CSA made heavy use of black labor during the war, that is not at issue.

- Alan
Hi...not sure exactly where to post this...just sharing this recent show here. I've been doing genealogy for 20 years and enjoy watching PBS' Finding your Roots. Season 4 Episode 6 titled "Black Like Me" reveals that the well known Bryant Gumbel's GGgrandfather was a member of LNG! It also shows a local newspaper clipping stating their allegiance. Starts at 38:55. It also reveals that the other famous broadcaster Susan Malveaux's black ancestor owned slaves and according to Professor Gates about 40% of free Louisiana blacks owned slaves in 1830. The entire episode is good but I'd thought I'd share Civil War info from a black professor that aired on Nov. 7th:
http://www.pbs.org/weta/finding-your-roots/home/ This is NOT where this is to be posted. Foreverfree has made clear that we've talking about the Official Records. Posted by Matthew McKeon, as moderator.
 
Last edited:

cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Messages
33,491
Location
Right here.
Hi...not sure exactly where to post this...just sharing this recent show here. I've been doing genealogy for 20 years and enjoy watching PBS' Finding your Roots. Season 4 Episode 6 titled "Black Like Me" reveals that the well known Bryant Gumbel's GGgrandfather was a member of LNG! It also shows a local newspaper clipping stating their allegiance. Starts at 38:55. It also reveals that the other famous broadcaster Susan Malveaux's black ancestor owned slaves and according to Professor Gates about 40% of free Louisiana blacks owned slaves. The entire episode is good but I'd thought I'd share Civil War info from a black professor that aired on Nov. 7th:
http://www.pbs.org/weta/finding-your-roots/home/
Why does it matter that he's a black professor?
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

Belle Montgomery

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
2,535
Location
44022
Hi...not sure exactly where to post this...just sharing this recent show here. I've been doing genealogy for 20 years and enjoy watching PBS' Finding your Roots. Season 4 Episode 6 titled "Black Like Me" reveals that the well known Bryant Gumbel's GGgrandfather was a member of LNG! It also shows a local newspaper clipping stating their allegiance. Starts at 38:55. It also reveals that the other famous broadcaster Susan Malveaux's black ancestor owned slaves and according to Professor Gates about 40% of free Louisiana blacks owned slaves in 1830. The entire episode is good but I'd thought I'd share Civil War info from a black professor that aired on Nov. 7th:
http://www.pbs.org/weta/finding-your-roots/home/ This is NOT where this is to be posted. Foreverfree has made clear that we've talking about the Official Records. Posted by Matthew McKeon, as moderator.
Sorry!...I taped the episode and recently watched it and thought I'd share because of the LNG mention...remove it if you like. Thank you.
 

19thGeorgia

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
Messages
3,087
The 9th Brigade Alabama Militia was transferred to Confederate command (for 90 days) in March 1862-

9thBrigadeAlaMilitiaArmyOfMobile.jpg

Official Records, Series I, Volume 6, p.868
---------------------------------------------------

The company of Creole Guards was part of the 9th Brigade-

CreoleMobile.jpg


Mobile Register, February 14, 1862
 
Last edited:
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

Andersonh1

Major
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Messages
8,096
Location
South Carolina
This is from a Civil War Trust article titled Black Confederates: Truth and Legend:

.......In those same Official Records, no Confederate ever references having black soldiers under his command or in his unit, although references to black laborers are common.​
Here's a reference to the 1st Louisiana Native Guard. They had volunteered to escort prisoners from 1st Manassas to prison, which is what this order references. The major general commanding would have been David Twiggs, though he would retire the following month.
0929_-_native_guard_turned_down_OR.jpg
 
Last edited:

thomas aagaard

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
3,896
Location
Denmark
Here's a reference to the 1st Louisiana Native Guard. They had volunteered to escort prisoners from 1st Manassas to prison, which is what this order references.
View attachment 167998
And it specifically tell us that their service was not wanted.
And it don't use the term "soldiers " but call them colored citizens.

Similar to when Creoles from Mobile wanted to serve in november 1863.
They would only be accepted if they didn't look like Negroes.

So no black soldiers there.
 
Last edited:
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!
Top