Sumter Again split from Why the Civil War WAS over SLAVERY!

jgoodguy

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Btw if the argument is Fort Sumter was attacked and hence the Confederacy primarily started the war over mistrusting Lincoln and his promise to only supply if peacefully allowed, well then the war was started over the Confederacy's false mistrust of Lincoln's message.

The other argument is that taking Fort Sumter and starting the war was a part of the greater goal of securing their Nation and seeing no use in waiting to see if it was just a supply run or not, either path was deemed unacceptable so they proceeded straight to attack and war.

The action of taking Sumter and commencing the war is not equal to the primary motivation of mistrusting Lincoln IMHO.
At the risk of repeating, the only way for Davis to trust Lincoln was for Lincoln to immediately give up Sumter.
 

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MattL

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At the risk of repeating, the only way for Davis to trust Lincoln was for Lincoln to immediately give up Sumter.
That's a good point. Trust was given in that context. Lincoln had notified Pickens of the intentions at Sumter as he had mentioned, and that didn't earn any trust.

We can speculate if the Confederacy had cautiously watched to see if they were just going to supply the Fort first and if all went through peacefully if trust would have been earned... I suspect you are right though that only giving up Sumter would earn "trust" in this regard.

Additionally people these days seem more surprised that the US and Lincoln were consistent with not recognizing secession and the Confederacy's new nation (which would seem to make them more honest, not less) than what I suspect the Confederates were.
 

uaskme

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It would have been Political Suicide to Lincoln if he had not Supplied Sumter. It would have been the same to Davis if he had let Lincoln do it. Either would have looked weak if they had of capitulated.

Maybe The Planter Class Honor possessed by Davis kept him from ambushing the Federal Fleet?
 

jgoodguy

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It would have been Political Suicide to Lincoln if he had not Supplied Sumter. It would have been the same to Davis if he had let Lincoln do it. Either would have looked weak if they had of capitulated.

Maybe The Planter Class Honor possessed by Davis kept him from ambushing the Federal Fleet?
IMHO The Planter Class Honor enticed him to shoot first.
 
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It would have been Political Suicide to Lincoln if he had not Supplied Sumter. It would have been the same to Davis if he had let Lincoln do it. Either would have looked weak if they had of capitulated.

Maybe The Planter Class Honor possessed by Davis kept him from ambushing the Federal Fleet?
I disagree. The President of the US could have said we have higher priorities and Sumter is indefensible, if they had a reason to do that. But he suspected that the situation was stabilizing in Kentucky and that Virginia was going to split anyway .
But the war was coming and Sumter was as good as time as any to provoke the first shot.
 

CSA Today

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Maybe seduce him with Southern food first.


A year or so ago, UB showed an interest in attending one of out SCV meetings. He was cordially invited and we looked forward to meeting him. Unfortunately, he had to cancel – I believe he was living in Ohio at the time and it's a far piece from there to here. We meet at a restaurant specializing in traditional Carolina bar b cue – none of that barbarous stuff some folks grill in their back yards.We planned to treat him to a bar b cue dinner and then give him the opportunity to present his alternative interpretation for the cause of the war to the camp. Hopefully, a decent meal before his talk would have had a tempering if not a civilizing effect on his presentation. :biggrin:
 
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For all the dots, how exactly does Lincoln establish trust without surrendering.
Not talking out of both sides of his mouth might have helped. When Lincoln's secretary of state says Sumter will be evacuated while Lincoln is putting together an expedition to resupply Sumter, which story is to be believed?

I agree with some of your general points, though I don't agree with the narrative you weave.

For one you said

"Davis had never believed the Confederates would be allowed to secede peacefully"

Which I agree... which means the decision to go ahead and be the one to start the war probably had far less to do with mistrust of Lincoln but believing it was an eventuality and he chose to do it on his terms when it made sense for them.

My point isn't that they didn't trust Lincoln (a completely different discussion, including whether it was warranted when we clearly can see the orders now), obviously one side willing to start a war to accomplish something doesn't completely trust the other side.

I don't buy they were all that surprised that Lincoln didn't treat them like their own Nation and they got a runaround. Let's not pretend that politics involved lots of runaround, changing opinions, etc. It existed like this before they broke off and it existed like that in each group after, within themselves too.

Basically Lincoln's actions, those connected to him, and the runaround they got wasn't anything new, this doesn't warrant going to war, this is politics and they were being treated completely consistent with the message they had always received, that unilateral secession was not recognized by the US.

Sure mistrust of Lincoln and the US played a role, but again you don't start a war over getting the runaround. They started the war to regain and keep their territory and why wait for Sumter to be resupplied and more troops to be nearby (or reinforced).

Basically everything I've seen suggests the Confederacy attacked Fort Sumter and Pickens proclaimed "the war is commenced" due to their own initiative and their own goals, not just because some belief Lincoln was untrustworthy. Either way they didn't want them to keep Fort Sumter, reinforced or not, Union being honest about only resupplying or not.

If the goal wasn't to just take Fort Sumter and start the war they could've easily waited it out for a more reasonable option accomplish that goal, including mistrust of Lincoln.
I think all the motivation Davis needed to fire on Sumter was a belief that Lincoln was sending a hostile fleet to Sumter to initiate military action, and therefore it was a case of fighting an undermanned fort with a near-starving garrison, or a well stocked fort and enemy warships at the same time.
 
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unionblue

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A year or so ago, UB showed an interest in attending one of out SCV meetings. He was cordially invited and we looked forward to meeting him. Unfortunately, he had to cancel – I believe he was living in Ohio at the time and it's a far piece from there to here. We meet at a restaurant specializing in traditional Carolina bar b cue – none of that barbarous stuff some folks grill in their back yards.We planned to treat him to a bar b cue dinner and then give him the opportunity to present his alternative interpretation for the cause of the war to the camp. Hopefully, a decent meal before his talk would have had a tempering if not a civilizing effect on his presentation. :biggrin:
I'm afraid my talk would have pretty much spoiled the appetites of all the SCV members present.

I was going to make the SCV pledge the central theme of my talk.

Perhaps one day.
 

uaskme

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I disagree. The President of the US could have said we have higher priorities and Sumter is indefensible, if they had a reason to do that. But he suspected that the situation was stabilizing in Kentucky and that Virginia was going to split anyway .
But the war was coming and Sumter was as good as time as any to provoke the first shot.
If he had thought Sumter was indefensible, not a priority, or didn't want conflict at this stage, he should of done something to change the outcome. He could
Of moved the garrison months in advance or supplied and supported the Fort in advance of military preparations to reduce it. Giving up the Fort under Threat would have been a unforgivable sign of weakness.
 

jgoodguy

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Not talking out of both sides of his mouth might have helped. When Lincoln's secretary of state says Sumter will be evacuated while Lincoln is putting together an expedition to resupply Sumter, which story is to be believed?
Maybe but what was the alterative that would have satisfied Davis.

Would we find Davis insulted that Lincoln did not give the CSA its independence? Would the discussion be that Lincoln should have not rebuffed Davis instead of the trust issue.
 

atlantis

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Why is Beauregard getting a pass, he fired without CS Congress declaring a state of war first. His action constituted a unprovoked act of aggression on the armed forces of a nation without authorization by the relevant officials.
If I am wrong show me in the CS constitution where you can start a war on your own.
 

cash

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Why is Beauregard getting a pass, he fired without CS Congress declaring a state of war first. His action constituted a unprovoked act of aggression on the armed forces of a nation without authorization by the relevant officials.
If I am wrong show me in the CS constitution where you can start a war on your own.
He didn't. Jefferson Davis ordered him to open fire.
 



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