State Sovereignty Caused the Secession of the Upper South

1stvermont

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Causes of Secession the Upper South

There were two major secession's from the union. The original seven “Cotton states” and later the upper south secession of VA, NC, TENN, ARK, and Pro south MO, KY. The upper south states of VA, NC,Tenn and Ark alone had a larger free population than the deep south representing the majority in the future confederacy. The upper south originally turned down secession and stayed in the union rather than join the new confederacy. When historians and textbooks talk of the reasons for secession, they almost unanimous point to the cotton states and sadly, the upper south is almost always unrepresented. Slavery so often linked with the cotton states secession, was in fact safer in the union for the upper south than had they joined the confederacy, and was not the cause of upper south secession [see post #35].

I will support as this thread moves along that the upper south left the union over state sovereignty. I will use their words, actions and state declarations to show this is true [see post #3 and #5]. To the upper south this was a war of self government of sovereign states vs a federal government that was willing to use military force to control its populous by forcing the states to stay in the union. We would no longer be a self governing populous and collection of states, but a nation controlled by a powerful centralized federal government. Preservation of the original american republic, was the main cause of secession.

I have been told to keep my posts short so I will make the arguments as the thread moves along.


Preserving America Constitutional Republic

-Gen. Robert E. Lee Quoted in The enduring Relevance of Robert E Lee
"All that the South has ever desired was the Union as established by our forefathers should be
preserved and that the government as originally organized should be administered in purity and truth."

-Jefferson Davis Message to confederate Congress April 29, 1861
Northern States of a political school which has persistently claimed that the government thus formed was not a compact between States, but was in effect a national government, set up above and over the States...The creature has been exalted above its creators; the principals have been made subordinate to the agent appointed by themselves.”


Lincoln and the republican party had set out to transform the union from a confederation of sovereign states, to a centralized nation controlled by the federal government. Lincoln also sought to expand the central government far beyond the scope of what was intended by the founders. He was dedicated to higher tariffs, centralization, national bank, internal improvements, vast expansion of the central government, and an overall disregard for the 9th/10th amendments and state sovereignty.

-Confederate General John B. Gordon
When the South raised its sword against the Union’s Flag, it was in defense of the Union’s Constitution.”

-Private John Harper 17 Maine regiment

Southerners persistently claim that their rebellion is for the purpose of preserving this form of government”

It was commonly believed in the south, that it was the north that should secede. As Henry Wise of Virginia said “Logically the union belongs to those who have kept, not those who have broken, its covenants...the north should do the seceding for the south represented more truly the nation which the federal government had set up in 1789.” They saw the growing majority of the north interfering with their culture within their states and violating the constitution. They feared democracy would rule and mod rule would take over America. So they wished to restore America to its original Constitution republic of confederated states as originally created to safeguard individuals liberty from mob rule and democracy. As president pierce said in 1855 “the power is in states alone.”

-Confederate President Jefferson Davis
I love the Union and the Constitution, but I would rather leave the Union with the Constitution than remain in the Union without it.”


-The Vice-President of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens
If centralism is ultimately to prevail; if our entire system of free Institutions as established by our common ancestors is to be subverted, and an Empire is to be established in their stead; if that is to be the last scene of the great tragic drama now being enacted: then, be assured, that we of the South will be acquitted, not only in our own consciences, but in the judgment of mankind, of all responsibility for so terrible a catastrophe, and from all guilt of so great a crime against humanity.”


-Dr. James Henly Thornwell of South Carolina
“If they (the North) prevail, the whole character of the Government will be changed, and instead of a federal republic, the common agent of sovereign and independent States, we shall have a central despotism, with the notion of States forever abolished, deriving its powers from the will, and shaping its policy according to the wishes, of a numerical majority of the people; we shall have, in other words, a supreme, irresponsible democracy...They are now fighting the battle of despotism. They have put their Constitution under their feet; they have annulled its most sacred provisions; The future fortunes of our children, and of this continent, would then be determined by a tyranny which has no parallel in history.”


-Confederate General Patrick Claiborne 1864
It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties.”
 
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1stvermont

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“The abuse never discusses evidence, only denounces what is called “Neo-Confederate” and “Lost Cause” mythology. These are both political terms of abuse that have no real meaning and are designed to silence your enemy unheard...In fact, no great historical question can ever be closed off by a slogan as long as we are free to think.”
-Clyde Wilson is a distinguished Professor Emeritus of History at the University of South Carolina


I think you have misunderstood state sovereignty. The fugitive slave laws was a battle over state sovereignty [property of south] vs vs northern state sovereignty. This can happen in a union of states that have different laws, just the reason secession is so vital to self government. Here is the cause of the upper south leaving the union.

Lincolns Call For Volunteers/ Self Government/ State Sovereignty

-E. merton Coulter The confederate States of America Louisiana State University Press
The Majority sentiment in the upper south had been unionist until Lincolns call for troops”

-John B Gordon Confederate General Reminiscences of the Civil War
The South maintained with the depth of religious conviction that the Union formed under the Constitution was a Union of consent and not of force; that the original States were not the creatures but the creators of the Union; that these States had gained their independence, their freedom, and their sovereignty from the mother country, and had not surrendered these on entering the Union; that by the express terms of the Constitution all rights and powers not delegated were reserved to the States; and the South challenged the North to find one trace of authority in that Constitution for invading and coercing a sovereign State.”

The single most important event that caused the upper south to join the confederacy was Lincolns call for volunteers to “suppress” the seven cotton states of the confederacy. Lincoln spoke loud by his actions when he called for volunteers to invade the confederacy of the deep south. His opinion was not that America was a collection of sovereign self governing States joined in a voluntary union by a constitution, but a centralized nation or empire. He made it very clear the deep south could not self govern themselves but were subject to their master the federal government. Lincoln in his inaugural address stated the union created the states, not the states ratifying the union [a very blatant rewrite of history] thus the power and authority lay with the federal government. The upper south and many in the north saw Lincolns call for volunteers against the cotton states as a major violation of the constitution, a violation of those states sovereignty and a main cause for secession.

-New York Journal of commerce 1/12/61
opposing secession changes the nature of government from a voluntary one, in which the people are sovereigns, to a despotism were one part of the people are slaves”



-New York tribune 2/5/61
The great principles embodied by Jefferson in the declaration is... that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed” Therefore if the southern states wish to secede, “they have a clear right to do so”


This also confirmed many southerners fear that Lincoln and the “radical” republicans would drastically transform the American republic. This is why many in the south saw the American civil war as their second war for independence.

-Historian Shelby Foote
Southerners would have told you they were fighting for self government. They believed the gathering of power in Washington was against them… When they entered into that Federation they certainly would never have entered into it if they hadn’t believed it would be possible to get out. And when the time came that they wanted to get out, they thought they had every right”

Some in the north recognized that this war was one of self governing states vs a controlling central federal government. Before being deported by Lincoln, A northern politician saw Lincolns war and purpose of the war as to

-Northern Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham D-Ohio spoke of the Reason for Lincolns war 1863
Overthrow the present form of Federal-republican government, and to establish a strong centralized government in its stead...national banks, bankrupt laws, a vast and permanent public debt, high tariffs, heavy direct taxation, enormous expenditure, gigantic and stupendous peculation . . . No more state lines, no more state governments, but a consolidatedmonarchy or vast centralized military despotism.” later saying “instead of crushing out the rebellion,” the “effort has been to crush out the spirit of liberty” in the Northern states.
 
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The Confederate

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“The abuse never discusses evidence, only denounces what is called “Neo-Confederate” and “Lost Cause” mythology. These are both political terms of abuse that have no real meaning and are designed to silence your enemy unheard...In fact, no great historical question can ever be closed off by a slogan as long as we are free to think.”
-Clyde Wilson is a distinguished Professor Emeritus of History at the University of South Carolina


I think you have misunderstood state sovereignty. The fugitive slave laws was a battle over state sovereignty [property of south] vs vs northern state sovereignty. This can happen in a union of states that have different laws, just the reason secession is so vital to self government.
It was a Federal law that the South was more than happy to enforce on the North, how is this a battle over State Sovereignty?

And about the quote, Lost Causers love to silence people who expose their lies by calling them "Treasury of Virtuers".
 

1stvermont

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It was a Federal law that the South was more than happy to enforce on the North, how is this a battle over State Sovereignty?

And about the quote, Lost Causers love to silence people who expose their lies by calling them "Treasury of Virtuers".

It was federal law that protected southerners state right to property. This can than **** off northerners who dont have that state law. Battle over sovereign states.


Each of the upper south states made it clear by their actions and words that Lincolns call for volunteers, state sovereignty, and self government, were the major cause of secession.



-Brevin Alexander Historian Professor of History at Longwood University
[upper south]Forced to chose between Lincolns demand and what they believed to be morally correct and Honorable..seceded as well”



Arkansas

-Arkansas Secession Document http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/secessionacts.html#ARKANSAS

“This convention pledging the State of Arkansas to resist to the last extremity any attempt on the part of such power to coerce any State that had seceded from the old Union, proclaimed to the world that war should be waged against such States until they should be compelled to submit to their rule, and large forces to accomplish this have by this same power been called out, and are now being marshaled to carry out this inhuman design; and to longer submit to such rule, or remain in the old Union of the United States, would be disgraceful and ruinous to the State of Arkansas[4]”

-Arkansas Governor Henry Rector Response to Lincolns call for Volunteers
The people of this commonwealth are free men not slaves, and will defend to the last extremity, their honor, lives, and property, against northern mendacity and usurpation”

Before Lincolns call for volunteers the people of Arkansas voted to stay in the union by a vote of 23,600 to 17,900. Than on March 4 1861 the Arkansas convention voted 40-35 to stay in the union with the president of the convention a unionist. On May 6th 1861 After Fort Sumtner and Lincolns call for men, Arkansas regathered this time only 5 votes went against secession, 4 of them would relent and join in succession in a short time. The before and after votes, as well as the Arkansas declaration for secession give the clear reasons for joining the confederacy.


Tennessee

-Tennessee Governor Isham Harris
Tennessee will not Furnish a man for purposes of coercion, but 50,000 if necessary for the defense of our rights, and those of our southern brothers”

On February the 9th the same day that Mississippi left the union, Tennessee voters turned down secession by a 4-1 margin. However after Lincolns call to volunteers Governor Isham Harris wrote President Lincoln saying if the federal government was going to “coerce” the seceded states into returning, Tennessee had no choice but to join its Southern neighbors. Harris recalled the Tennessee legislature on May 6 for another vote this time to join the confederacy. Than on June 8 voters approved the measure by a 2-1 margin.


Virginia

-Richmond Examiner Sep 11 1862
The principle now in contest between north and south is simply that of state sovereignty”

-Robert E Lee
A union that can be only maintained by swords and bayonets... has no charm for me”

Before Lincolns call for volunteers Virginia on April 4th 1861 voted by a 2-1 margin to stay in the union. After Lincolns call for volunteers Virginia gathered again and by a vote of 126,000 to 20,400 Virginia left the union. In the minds of Virginians, that reason was Lincolns call to volunteers and the violation of state sovereignty. Virginia did not give a lengthy declaration of why it left the union [The voting showed already] just a short ordinance of secession.

Virginia ordinance of secession

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/secessionacts.html#ARKANSAS

“Declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States[4]” [Cotton States the original succession states]

-R.L Dabney 1867 A Defense of Virginia and the South
It was...for this cornerstone [States Sovereignty] of all constitutional liberty north and south”

Kentucky

The official Kentucky government was pro north by about about a 3-1 margin but chose to keep its neutrality. However there was gaining support for the south When Lincoln called for volunteers. The Kentucky Governor wrote "President Lincoln, I will send not a man nor a dollar for the wicked purpose of subduing my sister southern states.” Later neutrality would be violated by southern troops and the state would join the union, however a pro south Kentucky government was set up and was accepted by Jeff Davis into the confederacy. States rights was the main cause for the pro south Kentucky government reason for secession.

Kentucky Declaration For Leaving The Union

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/secessionacts.html#ARKANSAS “Whereas, the Federal Constitution, which created the Government of the United States, was declared by the framers thereof to be the supreme law of the land, and was intended to limit and did expressly limit the powers of said Government to certain general specified purposes, and did expressly reserve to the States and people all other powers whatever, and the President and Congress have treated this supreme law of the Union with contempt and usurped to themselves the power to interfere with the rights and liberties of the States and the people against the expressed provisions of the Constitution, and have thus substituted for the highest forms of national liberty and constitutional government a central despotism founded upon the ignorant prejudices of the masses of Northern society, and instead of giving protection with the Constitution to the people of fifteen States of this Union have turned loose upon them the unrestrained and raging passions of mobs and fanatics, and because we now seek to hold our liberties, our property, our homes, and our families under the protection of the reserved powers of the States, have blockaded our ports, invaded our soil, and waged war upon our people for the purpose of subjugating us to their will; and Whereas, our honor and our duty to posterity demand that we shall not relinquish our own liberty and shall not abandon the right of our descendants and the world to the inestimable blessings of constitutional government: Therefore, .... because we may choose to take part in a cause for civil liberty and constitutional government against a sectional majority waging war against the people and institutions of fifteen independent States of the old Federal Union, and have done all these things deliberately against the warnings and vetoes of the Governor and the solemn remonstrances of the minority in the Senate and House of Representatives: Therefore, .....have a right to establish any government which to them may seem best adapted to the preservation of their rights and liberties.[4]”


North Carolina

-North Carolina Governor John Ellis
North Carolina will “Be no party to this wicked violation of the laws of the country, and to this war upon the liberties of a free people”


Having previously turned down even voting on secession, North Carolina responded to Lincolns call for volunteers by than unanimously adopted a secession ordinance, showing the impact it had on the state.


Missouri

-Missouri Governor Jackson Response to Lincolns call for Volunteers
Your requisition is illegal, unconstitutional, revolutionary, inhuman, diabolical, and cannot be complied with”

The slave state of Missouri was almost universally pro union. When the south sent delegates to try and convince the state to join the south, they were booed and jeered so that the CSA delegate could not even be heard. On March 21 1861 the Missouri convention voted 98-1 against secession, but kept its neutrality. Many in the state became angry and felt their state sovereignty was violated during the “Camp Jackson Affair” with General Lyon capturing the arsenal in St Louis and when union soldiers opened fire on civilians and pro confederates killing dozens. Many felt the federal government was violating the states neutral position and support for secession grew rapid in the state. This led to a end to neutrality and both a pro confederate and pro union government in the state. Pro south Missouri reasons for secession, centered around constitutional violations of the Lincoln administration.


Missouri Declaration For leaving The Unionhttp://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/secessionacts.html#ARKANSAS “Has wantonly violated the compact originally made between said Government and the State of Missouri, by invading with hostile armies the soil of the State, attacking and making prisoners the militia while legally assembled under the State laws, forcibly occupying the State capitol, and attempting through the instrumentality of domestic traitors to usurp the State government, seizing and destroying private property, and murdering with fiendish malignity peaceable citizens, men, women, and children, together with other acts of atrocity, indicating a deep-settled hostility toward the people of Missouri and their institutions; and Whereas the present Administration of the Government of the United States has utterly ignored the Constitution, subverted the Government as constructed and intended by its makers, and established a despotic and arbitrary power instead thereof: Now, therefore, Be it enacted by the general assembly of the State of Missouri, That all political ties of every character new existing between the Government of the United States of America and the people and government of the State of Missouri are hereby dissolved, and the State of Missouri, resuming the sovereignty granted by compact to the said United States upon admission of said State into the Federal Union, does again take its place as a free and independent republic amongst the nations of the earth.[4]”
 
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The Confederate

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Besides it is clear why they left the union.


Lincolns Call For Volunteers/ Self Government/ State Sovereignty

-E. merton Coulter The confederate States of America Louisiana State University Press
The Majority sentiment in the upper south had been unionist until Lincolns call for troops”

-John B Gordon Confederate General Reminiscences of the Civil War
The South maintained with the depth of religious conviction that the Union formed under the Constitution was a Union of consent and not of force; that the original States were not the creatures but the creators of the Union; that these States had gained their independence, their freedom, and their sovereignty from the mother country, and had not surrendered these on entering the Union; that by the express terms of the Constitution all rights and powers not delegated were reserved to the States; and the South challenged the North to find one trace of authority in that Constitution for invading and coercing a sovereign State.”

The single most important event that caused the upper south to join the confederacy was Lincolns call for volunteers to “suppress” the seven cotton states of the confederacy [2]. Lincoln spoke loud by his actions when he called for volunteers to invade the confederacy of the deep south. His opinion was not that America was a collection of sovereign self governing States joined in a voluntary union by a constitution, but a centralized nation or empire. He made it very clear the deep south could not self govern themselves but were subject to their master the federal government. Lincoln in his inaugural address stated the union created the states, not the states ratifying the union [a very blatant rewrite of history] thus the power and authority lay with the federal government[3]. The upper south and many in the north saw Lincolns call for volunteers against the cotton states as a major violation of the constitution, a violation of those states sovereignty and a main cause for secession.

-New York Journal of commerce 1/12/61
opposing secession changes the nature of government from a voluntary one, in which the people are sovereigns, to a despotism were one part of the people are slaves”



-New York tribune 2/5/61
The great principles embodied by Jefferson in the declaration is... that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed” Therefore if the southern states wish to secede, “they have a clear right to do so”


This also confirmed many southerners fear that Lincoln and the “radical” republicans would drastically transform the American republic. This is why many in the south saw the American civil war as their second war for independence.

-Historian Shelby Foote
Southerners would have told you they were fighting for self government. They believed the gathering of power in Washington was against them… When they entered into that Federation they certainly would never have entered into it if they hadn’t believed it would be possible to get out. And when the time came that they wanted to get out, they thought they had every right”

Some in the north recognized that this war was one of self governing states vs a controlling central federal government. Before being deported by Lincoln, A northern politician saw Lincolns war and purpose of the war as to

-Northern Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham D-Ohio spoke of the Reason for Lincolns war 1863
Overthrow the present form of Federal-republican government, and to establish a strong centralized government in its stead...national banks, bankrupt laws, a vast and permanent public debt, high tariffs, heavy direct taxation, enormous expenditure, gigantic and stupendous peculation . . . No more state lines, no more state governments, but a consolidated monarchy or vast centralized military despotism.” later saying “instead of crushing out the rebellion,” the “effort has been to crush out the spirit of liberty” in the Northern states.
It is really clear why they left the Union:

"We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection." - South Carolina

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun." - Mississippi

"The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery."- Georgia

"Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union... She was received into the confederacy...as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery — the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits — a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time.

In all the non-slave-holding States… the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party… based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color — a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States

all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations…" - Texas
 

1stvermont

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It is really clear why they left the Union:

"We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection." - South Carolina

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun." - Mississippi

"The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery."- Georgia

"Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union... She was received into the confederacy...as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery — the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits — a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time.

In all the non-slave-holding States… the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party… based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color — a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States

all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations…" - Texas

Sir i agree. it is very clear from their state declarations see post 5. You have the wrong states. This thread is on the upper south.


Then why did the South complain that the North was not following the Law?
Because it violated there state right. But lets stick to the upper south this thread.
 
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The Confederate

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Sir i agree. However you have the wrong states, this thread is on the upper south. They made it very clear why they left as you say.


Each of the upper south states made it clear by their actions and words that Lincolns call for volunteers, state sovereignty, and self government, were the major cause of secession.



-Brevin Alexander Historian Professor of History at Longwood University
[upper south]Forced to chose between Lincolns demand and what they believed to be morally correct and Honorable..seceded as well”



Arkansas

-Arkansas Secession Document http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/secessionacts.html#ARKANSAS

“This convention pledging the State of Arkansas to resist to the last extremity any attempt on the part of such power to coerce any State that had seceded from the old Union, proclaimed to the world that war should be waged against such States until they should be compelled to submit to their rule, and large forces to accomplish this have by this same power been called out, and are now being marshaled to carry out this inhuman design; and to longer submit to such rule, or remain in the old Union of the United States, would be disgraceful and ruinous to the State of Arkansas[4]”

-Arkansas Governor Henry Rector Response to Lincolns call for Volunteers
The people of this commonwealth are free men not slaves, and will defend to the last extremity, their honor, lives, and property, against northern mendacity and usurpation”

Before Lincolns call for volunteers the people of Arkansas voted to stay in the union by a vote of 23,600 to 17,900. Than on March 4 1861 the Arkansas convention voted 40-35 to stay in the union with the president of the convention a unionist. On May 6th 1861 After Fort Sumtner and Lincolns call for men, Arkansas regathered this time only 5 votes went against secession, 4 of them would relent and join in succession in a short time. The before and after votes, as well as the Arkansas declaration for secession give the clear reasons for joining the confederacy.


Tennessee

-Tennessee Governor Isham Harris
Tennessee will not Furnish a man for purposes of coercion, but 50,000 if necessary for the defense of our rights, and those of our southern brothers”

On February the 9th the same day that Mississippi left the union, Tennessee voters turned down secession by a 4-1 margin. However after Lincolns call to volunteers Governor Isham Harris wrote President Lincoln saying if the federal government was going to “coerce” the seceded states into returning, Tennessee had no choice but to join its Southern neighbors. Harris recalled the Tennessee legislature on May 6 for another vote this time to join the confederacy. Than on June 8 voters approved the measure by a 2-1 margin.


Virginia

-Richmond Examiner Sep 11 1862
The principle now in contest between north and south is simply that of state sovereignty”

-Robert E Lee
A union that can be only maintained by swords and bayonets... has no charm for me”

Before Lincolns call for volunteers Virginia on April 4th 1861 voted by a 2-1 margin to stay in the union. After Lincolns call for volunteers Virginia gathered again and by a vote of 126,000 to 20,400 Virginia left the union. In the minds of Virginians, that reason was Lincolns call to volunteers and the violation of state sovereignty. Virginia did not give a lengthy declaration of why it left the union [The voting showed already] just a short ordinance of secession.

Virginia ordinance of secession

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/secessionacts.html#ARKANSAS

“Declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States[4]” [Cotton States the original succession states]

-R.L Dabney 1867 A Defense of Virginia and the South
It was...for this cornerstone [States Sovereignty] of all constitutional liberty north and south”

Kentucky

The official Kentucky government was pro north by about about a 3-1 margin but chose to keep its neutrality. However there was gaining support for the south When Lincoln called for volunteers. The Kentucky Governor wrote "President Lincoln, I will send not a man nor a dollar for the wicked purpose of subduing my sister southern states.” Later neutrality would be violated by southern troops and the state would join the union, however a pro south Kentucky government was set up and was accepted by Jeff Davis into the confederacy. States rights was the main cause for the pro south Kentucky government reason for secession.

Kentucky Declaration For Leaving The Union

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/secessionacts.html#ARKANSAS “Whereas, the Federal Constitution, which created the Government of the United States, was declared by the framers thereof to be the supreme law of the land, and was intended to limit and did expressly limit the powers of said Government to certain general specified purposes, and did expressly reserve to the States and people all other powers whatever, and the President and Congress have treated this supreme law of the Union with contempt and usurped to themselves the power to interfere with the rights and liberties of the States and the people against the expressed provisions of the Constitution, and have thus substituted for the highest forms of national liberty and constitutional government a central despotism founded upon the ignorant prejudices of the masses of Northern society, and instead of giving protection with the Constitution to the people of fifteen States of this Union have turned loose upon them the unrestrained and raging passions of mobs and fanatics, and because we now seek to hold our liberties, our property, our homes, and our families under the protection of the reserved powers of the States, have blockaded our ports, invaded our soil, and waged war upon our people for the purpose of subjugating us to their will; and Whereas, our honor and our duty to posterity demand that we shall not relinquish our own liberty and shall not abandon the right of our descendants and the world to the inestimable blessings of constitutional government: Therefore, .... because we may choose to take part in a cause for civil liberty and constitutional government against a sectional majority waging war against the people and institutions of fifteen independent States of the old Federal Union, and have done all these things deliberately against the warnings and vetoes of the Governor and the solemn remonstrances of the minority in the Senate and House of Representatives: Therefore, .....have a right to establish any government which to them may seem best adapted to the preservation of their rights and liberties.[4]”


North Carolina

-North Carolina Governor John Ellis
North Carolina will “Be no party to this wicked violation of the laws of the country, and to this war upon the liberties of a free people”


Having previously turned down even voting on secession, North Carolina responded to Lincolns call for volunteers by than unanimously adopted a secession ordinance, showing the impact it had on the state.


Missouri

-Missouri Governor Jackson Response to Lincolns call for Volunteers
Your requisition is illegal, unconstitutional, revolutionary, inhuman, diabolical, and cannot be complied with”

The slave state of Missouri was almost universally pro union. When the south sent delegates to try and convince the state to join the south, they were booed and jeered so that the CSA delegate could not even be heard. On March 21 1861 the Missouri convention voted 98-1 against secession, but kept its neutrality. Many in the state became angry and felt their state sovereignty was violated during the “Camp Jackson Affair” with General Lyon capturing the arsenal in St Louis and when union soldiers opened fire on civilians and pro confederates killing dozens. Many felt the federal government was violating the states neutral position and support for secession grew rapid in the state. This led to a end to neutrality and both a pro confederate and pro union government in the state. Pro south Missouri reasons for secession, centered around constitutional violations of the Lincoln administration.


Missouri Declaration For leaving The Union http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/secessionacts.html#ARKANSAS “Has wantonly violated the compact originally made between said Government and the State of Missouri, by invading with hostile armies the soil of the State, attacking and making prisoners the militia while legally assembled under the State laws, forcibly occupying the State capitol, and attempting through the instrumentality of domestic traitors to usurp the State government, seizing and destroying private property, and murdering with fiendish malignity peaceable citizens, men, women, and children, together with other acts of atrocity, indicating a deep-settled hostility toward the people of Missouri and their institutions; and Whereas the present Administration of the Government of the United States has utterly ignored the Constitution, subverted the Government as constructed and intended by its makers, and established a despotic and arbitrary power instead thereof: Now, therefore, Be it enacted by the general assembly of the State of Missouri, That all political ties of every character new existing between the Government of the United States of America and the people and government of the State of Missouri are hereby dissolved, and the State of Missouri, resuming the sovereignty granted by compact to the said United States upon admission of said State into the Federal Union, does again take its place as a free and independent republic amongst the nations of the earth.[4]”





Because it violated there state right. But lets stick to the upper south this thread.
Any proof of the quotes?

And about the Fugitive Slave Act, you mean it violated they State Right to impose a Federal law in the North?
 

1stvermont

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Any proof of the quotes?

And about the Fugitive Slave Act, you mean it violated they State Right to impose a Federal law in the North?
Secession Acts of the Thirteen Confederate States
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/secessionacts.html

Governors quotes come from
E Merton Coulter The Confederate States of America Louisiana State university Press
and I think can be found online as well.


state right
no. You dont impose federal law, it is federal law. Northern states nullified the federal law and that was an act against southern state right to property. But please stay on topic of the upper south.
 

The Confederate

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jgoodguy

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Causes of Secession the Upper South

There were two major secession's from the union. The original seven “Cotton states” and later the upper south secession of VA, NC, TENN, ARK, and Pro south MO, KY. The upper south states of VA, NC,Tenn and Ark alone had a larger free population than the deep south representing the majority in the future confederacy. The upper south originally turned down secession and stayed in the union rather than join the new confederacy. When historians and textbooks talk of the reasons for secession, they almost unanimous point to the cotton states and sadly, the upper south is almost always unrepresented.

I will support as this thread moves along that the upper south left the union over state sovereignty. I will use their words, actions and state declarations to show this is true. To the upper south this was a war of self government of sovereign states vs a federal government that was willing to use military force to control its populous by forcing the states to stay in the union. We would no longer be a self governing populous and collection of states, but a nation controlled by a powerful centralized federal government. Preservation of the original american republic, was the main cause of secession.

I have been told to keep my posts short so I will make the arguments as the thread moves along.


Preserving America Constitutional Republic

-Gen. Robert E. Lee Quoted in The enduring Relevance of Robert E Lee
"All that the South has ever desired was the Union as established by our forefathers should be
preserved and that the government as originally organized should be administered in purity and truth."

-Jefferson Davis Message to confederate Congress April 29, 1861
Northern States of a political school which has persistently claimed that the government thus formed was not a compact between States, but was in effect a national government, set up above and over the States...The creature has been exalted above its creators; the principals have been made subordinate to the agent appointed by themselves.”


Lincoln and the republican party had set out to transform the union from a confederation of sovereign states, to a centralized nation controlled by the federal government. Lincoln also sought to expand the central government far beyond the scope of what was intended by the founders. He was dedicated to higher tariffs, centralization, national bank, internal improvements, vast expansion of the central government, and an overall disregard for the 9th/10th amendments and state sovereignty.

-Confederate General John B. Gordon
When the South raised its sword against the Union’s Flag, it was in defense of the Union’s Constitution.”

-Private John Harper 17 Maine regiment

Southerners persistently claim that their rebellion is for the purpose of preserving this form of government”

It was commonly believed in the south, that it was the north that should secede. As Henry Wise of Virginia said “Logically the union belongs to those who have kept, not those who have broken, its covenants...the north should do the seceding for the south represented more truly the nation which the federal government had set up in 1789.” They saw the growing majority of the north interfering with their culture within their states and violating the constitution. They feared democracy would rule and mod rule would take over America. So they wished to restore America to its original Constitution republic of confederated states as originally created to safeguard individuals liberty from mob rule and democracy. As president pierce said in 1855 “the power is in states alone.”

-Confederate President Jefferson Davis
I love the Union and the Constitution, but I would rather leave the Union with the Constitution than remain in the Union without it.”


-The Vice-President of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens
If centralism is ultimately to prevail; if our entire system of free Institutions as established by our common ancestors is to be subverted, and an Empire is to be established in their stead; if that is to be the last scene of the great tragic drama now being enacted: then, be assured, that we of the South will be acquitted, not only in our own consciences, but in the judgment of mankind, of all responsibility for so terrible a catastrophe, and from all guilt of so great a crime against humanity.”


-Dr. James Henly Thornwell of South Carolina
“If they (the North) prevail, the whole character of the Government will be changed, and instead of a federal republic, the common agent of sovereign and independent States, we shall have a central despotism, with the notion of States forever abolished, deriving its powers from the will, and shaping its policy according to the wishes, of a numerical majority of the people; we shall have, in other words, a supreme, irresponsible democracy...They are now fighting the battle of despotism. They have put their Constitution under their feet; they have annulled its most sacred provisions; The future fortunes of our children, and of this continent, would then be determined by a tyranny which has no parallel in history.”


-Confederate General Patrick Claiborne 1864
It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties.”
Basically all I am seeing is opinions which can be matched by other opinions.
It is unremarkable that the secessionists had the opinion they could secede, but lack law, constitutional provision or court decisions to back that up.
 

1stvermont

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First of all, there were only Eleven Confederate States.

Second of all, this is only Ordinances declaring that they were Seceding, doesn't prove nothing.
No sir there was actually more than 13 even. I think you should go back reread my op and some on the upper south before posting. Some are ordinances, some not read my post number 5 that quotes them or read them all in full.

Basically all I am seeing is opinions which can be matched by other opinions.
It is unremarkable that the secessionists had the opinion they could secede, but lack law, constitutional provision or court decisions to back that up.
Of course I disagree with your opinion but the legality is not the topic. Please read post 3 and 5 for more support.
 

jgoodguy

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Secession Acts of the Thirteen Confederate States
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/secessionacts.html

Governors quotes come from
E Merton Coulter The Confederate States of America Louisiana State university Press
and I think can be found online as well.


state right
no. You dont impose federal law, it is federal law. Northern states nullified the federal law and that was an act against southern state right to property. But please stay on topic of the upper south.
In the opinion of the host of this forum, it States Rights are asserted, then discussions of the Fugitive Slave Law is in bounds as it was a issue of States Rights unless @1stvermont wishes to argue that States Rights is exclusive to the South.
 

The Confederate

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state right
no. You dont impose federal law, it is federal law. Northern states nullified the federal law and that was an act against southern state right to property. But please stay on topic of the upper south.
So you mean the South has the right to impose it in the North, but the North doesn't have the right to resist it?

It's not a battle over States Rights, it is a clear use of a Federal law by the South for their interests.

No sir there was actually more than 13 even. I think you should go back reread my op and some on the upper south before posting. Some are ordinances, some not read my post number 5 that quotes them or read them all in full.



Of course I disagree with your opinion but the legality is not the topic. Please read post 3 and 5 for more support.
No, there were only Eleven, Missouri and Kentucky never were Confederate states.
 

jgoodguy

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No sir there was actually more than 13 even. I think you should go back reread my op and some on the upper south before posting. Some are ordinances, some not read my post number 5 that quotes them or read them all in full.



Of course I disagree with your opinion but the legality is not the topic. Please read post 3 and 5 for more support.
As host of the forum, if you discuss secession, then legality of secession is on topic.

You put it 'legality' on topic yourself when you said:

state right
no. You dont impose federal law, it is federal law. Northern states nullified the federal law and that was an act against southern state right to property. But please stay on topic of the upper south.
 

1stvermont

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In the opinion of the host of this forum, it States Rights are asserted, then discussions of the Fugitive Slave Law is in bounds as it was a issue of States Rights unless @1stvermont wishes to argue that States Rights is exclusive to the South.
I agree, but he has to show that caused the upper south to leave, it did not so not really on topic but I will discus it anyways. But as i said stats rights can lead to fights such as the fugitive slave law did.



So you mean the South has the right to impose it in the North, but the North doesn't have the right to resist it?

It's not a battle over States Rights, it is a clear use of a Federal law by the South for their interests.



No, there were only Eleven, Missouri and Kentucky never were Confederate states.
No sir. I say they both have state right, the south to have legal property, the northern state [like mine in vermont with our liberty laws] can reject that protection because our state, did not reorganize it. Like I said that is why secession is vital tow self government IMO.

The confederate representatives from Kentucky [whole war] and the secession documents they produced with disagree with you. So would the confederate government that accepted them into the confederacy. Plus there is more, I will leave that for you to figure out and rad up on.
 

jgoodguy

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state right
no. You dont impose federal law, it is federal law. Northern states nullified the federal law and that was an act against southern state right to property. But please stay on topic of the upper south.
It appears to me that federal law forbids actions taken under the name of secession.

Are you claiming exclusive rights to the South to determine which laws apply to them.
 


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