Discussion Spirituality And Religion

Booklady

Sergeant
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Location
New England
This might actually be more appropriate under Economics.



A Feature of the Times.


GOD is chastening the nation for its sins, yet who thinks of being humbled. While a deplorable civil war is desolating a large portion of the country, and bereavement, sorrow, and mourning, are in tens of thousands of families, the rage for amusement and pleasure, and a disposition to throw off every serious feeling, was never so great, and the exhibitions of the pride of life never so extensive and disgusting. As a specimen, read from the Independent the following description of the unparalleled strides of pride, luxury, and extravagance in the city of New York:



Never, since the Pilgrims landed on these shores, was there such universal prosperity—in the loyal states—as at the present moment. Merchants have made more money during the past two years, than ever before in twice that space of time. Mechanics are, and have been, crowded with work, at high wages. Farmers and laboring men are investing large sums of money in government and other stocks, or are piling it up in savings-banks. Manufacturers, as a whole, are making semi-annual fortunes. Speculators are more numerous than our soldiers on the battle-field. Almost every other business man is dabbling more or less in stocks, or is in some way connected with a government contract; and as for Wall street, never was there such a financial millennium, as since the present rebellion. Millionaires can now be counted there by dozens. Princes are on every block, and bankers are "as thick as blackberries." Who, at the North, would ever think of war, if he had not a friend in the army, or did not read the newspapers? So much on the subject of making money. Now what can be said about spending it? Go into Broadway— not to "Webster's unabridged"—and we will show you what is meant by the word, extravagance. Ask Stewart about the demand for camel's-hair shawls, and he will say, "Monstrous." Ask Tiffany what kind of diamonds and pearls are called for. He will answer, "The prodigious—as near hen's eggs size as possible," — "price no object." What kind of carpetings are now wanted? None but "extra." Brussels and velvets are now used from basement to garret. Ingrains and three-plys don't do at all. Call a moment at a carriage depository. In reply to your first question you will be told, "Never such demand before, sir." And as for horses, the medium-priced, five-hundred- dollar kind are all out of market. A good pair of fast ones, "all right," will go for a thousand dollars, quicker than a basket of strawberries will sell for f-o-u-r cents. Those a little extra will bring fifteen hundred or two thousand, while the superb sort will bring any price among the "high numbers."



The apostle describes a certain time when men shall be covetous, when every advantage shall be taken, and all means resorted to, to aggrandize and gratify self, when the natural affections of men's hearts shall then be turned out of usual channels, or rather, when they shall be " without natural affection," and when an all absorbing spirit of worldliness and irreligion shall envelop and swallow up mankind. The apostle is also careful to state that these days are the last days of this world's existence; and what if our own times answer the description? U.S. [editor Uriah Smith]



From: Advent Review and Sabbath Herald July 7, 1863
Seems very timely for our own culture ("...who thinks of being humbled?"). The more things change... Thanks for sharing this look at the spiritual state of (at least) the North in July of 1863. I wouldn't have thought it was the case just then.
 

lurid

First Sergeant
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
This might actually be more appropriate under Economics.



A Feature of the Times.


GOD is chastening the nation for its sins, yet who thinks of being humbled. While a deplorable civil war is desolating a large portion of the country, and bereavement, sorrow, and mourning, are in tens of thousands of families, the rage for amusement and pleasure, and a disposition to throw off every serious feeling, was never so great, and the exhibitions of the pride of life never so extensive and disgusting. As a specimen, read from the Independent the following description of the unparalleled strides of pride, luxury, and extravagance in the city of New York:



Never, since the Pilgrims landed on these shores, was there such universal prosperity—in the loyal states—as at the present moment. Merchants have made more money during the past two years, than ever before in twice that space of time. Mechanics are, and have been, crowded with work, at high wages. Farmers and laboring men are investing large sums of money in government and other stocks, or are piling it up in savings-banks. Manufacturers, as a whole, are making semi-annual fortunes. Speculators are more numerous than our soldiers on the battle-field. Almost every other business man is dabbling more or less in stocks, or is in some way connected with a government contract; and as for Wall street, never was there such a financial millennium, as since the present rebellion. Millionaires can now be counted there by dozens. Princes are on every block, and bankers are "as thick as blackberries." Who, at the North, would ever think of war, if he had not a friend in the army, or did not read the newspapers? So much on the subject of making money. Now what can be said about spending it? Go into Broadway— not to "Webster's unabridged"—and we will show you what is meant by the word, extravagance. Ask Stewart about the demand for camel's-hair shawls, and he will say, "Monstrous." Ask Tiffany what kind of diamonds and pearls are called for. He will answer, "The prodigious—as near hen's eggs size as possible," — "price no object." What kind of carpetings are now wanted? None but "extra." Brussels and velvets are now used from basement to garret. Ingrains and three-plys don't do at all. Call a moment at a carriage depository. In reply to your first question you will be told, "Never such demand before, sir." And as for horses, the medium-priced, five-hundred- dollar kind are all out of market. A good pair of fast ones, "all right," will go for a thousand dollars, quicker than a basket of strawberries will sell for f-o-u-r cents. Those a little extra will bring fifteen hundred or two thousand, while the superb sort will bring any price among the "high numbers."



The apostle describes a certain time when men shall be covetous, when every advantage shall be taken, and all means resorted to, to aggrandize and gratify self, when the natural affections of men's hearts shall then be turned out of usual channels, or rather, when they shall be " without natural affection," and when an all absorbing spirit of worldliness and irreligion shall envelop and swallow up mankind. The apostle is also careful to state that these days are the last days of this world's existence; and what if our own times answer the description? U.S. [editor Uriah Smith]



From: Advent Review and Sabbath Herald July 7, 1863

First, God does not chastise people through war, that misses the purpose of discipline. Here's your scripture: James 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? Man starts wars, period.

Second, how logically is it to think that God chastised the entire country for what NYC was doing? Here's your scripture: Genesis 19:24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven. It seems to me God judged Sodom and Gomorrah and speared the rest of the Middle East. I'm quite sure God could have judged NYC and speared the rest of the USA. Here's another scripture regarding chastisement: Hebrews 12: 5-85 ​And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,6 ​because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” 7 ​Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 ​If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. I severely doubt God was chastising the USA for what NYC did by sending over 1 million men to their death, that's not the idea behind chastisement.

Third, your post would not be more appropriate under economics and just demeans your argument. The Gilded Age the subsequent age following the war the entire country prospered way more than the Antebellum era. At the end of the Gilded Age and beginning of the progressive age 5 percent of the national income gone to families in the upper one-one-hundredth of a percent of the income distribution — currently, the almost 15,000 families with incomes of $9.5 million or more a year.(analysis of tax returns by the economists Emmanuel Saez at the University of California, Berkeley and Thomas Piketty at the Paris School of Economics). People prospered more after the war than before it, so that throws a wrench into that theory. According to that theory, we can say WW1 was because of prosperity, then WW2 and so on and so on. Consequently, there's more prosperity now with tech giants than ever, so there must be war in the near future to stop prosperity, but no war ever did.

Finally, the south caused the Civil War because its entire identity and economy was wrapped up in slavery. They knew the Republicans were going to release the slaves from servitude, and that is why one Lincoln had it in the bag they fired shots at FT Sumter.
 

lurid

First Sergeant
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
On the other hand, and from a perspective not centered on *this* world, maybe God honored Jackson's "religiosity" by an intervention that you don't even recognize. Read John Donne's "Death Be Not Proud."
Theological arguments are a bore and usually result in a impasse because people like you have their own interpretation, so I regress after this post to keep my sanity. Precisely my point, I read Donne's writings in college and none of it interested me, besides we are pretending to be spiritual in this thread so we would be inappropriately replacing scripture with mainstream literature. With all do respect, Lost Causers view the Confederacy and all its little members in a literary sense, so it gives you something to consider. Nevertheless, I was talking about the difference between spirituality and religiosity, there is a difference you know, or not? Furthermore, I specifically said in post #10 that this is a touchy subject, therefore, it is far too difficult to be exact. Hence, what is you point? Are you alluding to that you recognize God's intervention in Jackson's life? If so, times two on precisely my point.

I stand by what I said about Jackson and here's the scripture. 1 Chronicles 28:3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood. Therefore, God did not honor Jackson's religiosity because he didn't honor David who had a heart after God's heart. I have hard time believing God honored Jackson in any intervention other than Jackson receiving God's salvation, but if you do that's your business.
 

Booklady

Sergeant
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Location
New England
Theological arguments are a bore and usually result in a impasse because people like you have their own interpretation, so I regress after this post to keep my sanity. Precisely my point, I read Donne's writings in college and none of it interested me, besides we are pretending to be spiritual in this thread so we would be inappropriately replacing scripture with mainstream literature. With all do respect, Lost Causers view the Confederacy and all its little members in a literary sense, so it gives you something to consider. Nevertheless, I was talking about the difference between spirituality and religiosity, there is a difference you know, or not? Furthermore, I specifically said in post #10 that this is a touchy subject, therefore, it is far too difficult to be exact. Hence, what is you point? Are you alluding to that you recognize God's intervention in Jackson's life? If so, times two on precisely my point.

I stand by what I said about Jackson and here's the scripture. 1 Chronicles 28:3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood. Therefore, God did not honor Jackson's religiosity because he didn't honor David who had a heart after God's heart. I have hard time believing God honored Jackson in any intervention other than Jackson receiving God's salvation, but if you do that's your business.
People like me. Yikes. Sorry for the offense. It was unintended.
 

Lubliner

Captain
Forum Host
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Location
Chattanooga, Tennessee
@lurid I may be wrong but I don't think you quite understood the meaning of the O. P. To speak of the incidental beliefs of those men and women in that era can have nothing at all to do with 'personal perspectives'. I for one know that the southern clergy leadership after the fall of Richmond wanted to hold services to succor the distressed populations, and tried to bargain with General Weitzel to open it's doors without honoring a prayer to President Lincoln. How in the world can you read the Official Records with all the highlights of their own personal beliefs set forth on print, and come away with such an insipid taste for humanity?
Lubliner.
 

lurid

First Sergeant
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
@lurid I may be wrong but I don't think you quite understood the meaning of the O. P. To speak of the incidental beliefs of those men and women in that era can have nothing at all to do with 'personal perspectives'. I for one know that the southern clergy leadership after the fall of Richmond wanted to hold services to succor the distressed populations, and tried to bargain with General Weitzel to open it's doors without honoring a prayer to President Lincoln. How in the world can you read the Official Records with all the highlights of their own personal beliefs set forth on print, and come away with such an insipid taste for humanity?
Lubliner.

No maybe, you are wrong. But you seem to be a good guy, so I'll explain a little to you. I was not demeaning anyone, that's how you took it, and to be frank, you took it out of context. I was being practical about the difference of spirituality vs. religiosity. I don't know what in the world you are talking about? Your post has nothing to do with what I said. Nobody was knocking their personal beliefs. The OP's title is spirituality and religion, I just expounded on the topic. They are two different realms, which you folks equate them as one, and that's why there is confusion to what I said. God is spirit, and resides in the spirit and not in the temporal.

King David was one the greatest human beings that ever lived, and was rejected by God to build God's temple because he was a man of war. That doesn't mean he went to hell or was a bad guy, he was exempt from some privileges' because he was a man of war, which is obvious that disqualifies people from certain privileges. I was in a war and was in infantry, I suppose I would be exempt from certain things in God. That was all I was saying about Jackson. I never remotely insinuated that Jackson was a bad guy and was going to hell. I'm saying he was not spiritual at all, and was merely religious. I stand by that statement.

The one member posted a newspaper editorial from the 1800s blaming the war on New York's conspicuous consumption and claimed it was God's chastisement. Nonsense. I explained the difference between judgment and chastisement. If anything, my post should have been a load off some of those forlorn, doleful introspected types who been wondering their entire lives if they are good enough to get into Heaven. If anything, that member condemned an entire country over one city's sins, which is rather harsh. But we know where that member was going with it all, he or she was blaming the war on the north. Yeah, that's what that member was trying to do.

The other member was more secular, using 17th century literature to replace actual scripture to prove his or her point. Ridiculous. This is not rocket science, God shed light on how he deals with man through the bible. If you have to get a reference from a secular source and apply it to religion then you are just trying to prove an implausible point. No thank you.

Here is excerpt from the OP: I just want to discuss how people viewed the war with respect to their own or someone else's religious beliefs or lack thereof. I was just expounding on the lack of thereof, and to rebuke that demented Lost Cause perspective that the Confederacy and all its members had the highest favor of God in a losing effort, but David had that same favor of God in a winning effort, so that should give you something to consider. But whatever, you believe what you want to believe, just don't accuse me of being insensitive because that's not accurate. I don't get personal with invisible people I casually encounter on the internet, so reciprocate it back.
 

Booklady

Sergeant
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Location
New England
"People like you," as Lurid so ungraciously and judgmentally addressed me -- People like me generally avoid arguing about religion *or* spirituality. Indeed, in the fight-or-flight choice, I'm usually out the door and down the street before the phrase is finished being uttered. But when a comment of mine is denigrated as "ridiculous," I might step up and offer a brief defense.

First, I would take issue with Lurid referring to the poet John Donne as "secular." Secular means "denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis." While Donne in his youth did carouse and chase women and write sensual poetry, he later became a member of the clergy of the Church of England and is known for writing many sermons (one composed and delivered by leaving his deathbed). His legacy as a metaphysical poet is hardly secular. Now, I'm no expert on John Donne, but his poem "Death Be Not Proud," one of his several so-called Holy Sonnets, is as spiritual a look as you can get outside of 1 Corinthians 15 of the triumph of life over death.

Death, be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;
For those whom thou think'st thou dost overthrow
Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.

From rest and sleep, which but thy pictures be,
Much pleasure; then from thee much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee do go,
Rest of their bones, and soul's delivery.
Thou art slave to fate, chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,
And poppy or charms can make us sleep as well
And better than thy stroke; why swell'st thou then?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally
And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die.
[Emphasis mine]


"Death, thou shalt die," (note the comma -- it is Death that dies, not man) is consistent with the Orthodox Christian view that Christ himself defeated death by His own death on the cross and resurrection and ascension. You can dismiss this as "religion," but I know you will find in many other "spiritual" traditions and practices the refutation that Death is "mighty" or has the final say.

Again, I'm not going to argue theology, only attempt to counter your claim that Donne is a secular, not a spiritual poet. Nevertheless, I did not cite "Death Be Not Proud" because I wanted to draw attention to John Donne. I wanted to draw attention to his thesis -- and my own faith -- that someone dying (in this case Stonewall Jackson, who is reputed to have been a devoutly spiritual man) might have been blessed in his death in ways that we cannot see or imagine. That's my second point.

You wrote, "George Washington was extremely religious, but he was on the winning side and he stayed alive, so his spirituality in not questioned. It appears God intervened on his behalf, but it appears God did not intervene on Jackson's behalf." Scripturally, look at Psalm 116:15 ("The death of his saints is precious to the Lord") and Isaiah 55:8-9 ("My thoughts are not your thoughts..."). The point I was trying to make -- and obviously failing at -- with my reference to "Death Be Not Proud," was that Jackson *might* have actually received his blessing in the form of his death, or been blessed with "much pleasure" (Donne's phrase) that we cannot see. Who knows? We don't. We only see what we can see (1 Corinthians 13:12, if you want a scripture reference). Is God powerful or not?

Finally, as regards your claim that warriors cannot and do not receive honors from God, I would note that Joshua is one of the fiercest, most single-minded warriors in the Old Testament, responsible for the deaths of thousands of Canaanites in the capture of the Promised Land, but known for his obedience to God, and undeniably given honors and rights of leadership by God and lifetime reverence by his people. That is scriptural. (Joshua 4:14).

I suspect you will disagree and probably even mock and call "ridiculous" my explanation for citing John Donne. Be my guest. I've spent way too much time on this already.
 

American87

Sergeant
Joined
Aug 27, 2016
Location
PENNSYLVANIA
"People like you," as Lurid so ungraciously and judgmentally addressed me -- People like me generally avoid arguing about religion *or* spirituality. Indeed, in the fight-or-flight choice, I'm usually out the door and down the street before the phrase is finished being uttered. But when a comment of mine is denigrated as "ridiculous," I might step up and offer a brief defense.

First, I would take issue with Lurid referring to the poet John Donne as "secular." Secular means "denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis." While Donne in his youth did carouse and chase women and write sensual poetry, he later became a member of the clergy of the Church of England and is known for writing many sermons (one composed and delivered by leaving his deathbed). His legacy as a metaphysical poet is hardly secular. Now, I'm no expert on John Donne, but his poem "Death Be Not Proud," one of his several so-called Holy Sonnets, is as spiritual a look as you can get outside of 1 Corinthians 15 of the triumph of life over death.

Death, be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;
For those whom thou think'st thou dost overthrow
Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.

From rest and sleep, which but thy pictures be,
Much pleasure; then from thee much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee do go,
Rest of their bones, and soul's delivery.
Thou art slave to fate, chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,
And poppy or charms can make us sleep as well
And better than thy stroke; why swell'st thou then?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally
And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die.
[Emphasis mine]


"Death, thou shalt die," (note the comma -- it is Death that dies, not man) is consistent with the Orthodox Christian view that Christ himself defeated death by His own death on the cross and resurrection and ascension. You can dismiss this as "religion," but I know you will find in many other "spiritual" traditions and practices the refutation that Death is "mighty" or has the final say.

Again, I'm not going to argue theology, only attempt to counter your claim that Donne is a secular, not a spiritual poet. Nevertheless, I did not cite "Death Be Not Proud" because I wanted to draw attention to John Donne. I wanted to draw attention to his thesis -- and my own faith -- that someone dying (in this case Stonewall Jackson, who is reputed to have been a devoutly spiritual man) might have been blessed in his death in ways that we cannot see or imagine. That's my second point.

You wrote, "George Washington was extremely religious, but he was on the winning side and he stayed alive, so his spirituality in not questioned. It appears God intervened on his behalf, but it appears God did not intervene on Jackson's behalf." Scripturally, look at Psalm 116:15 ("The death of his saints is precious to the Lord") and Isaiah 55:8-9 ("My thoughts are not your thoughts..."). The point I was trying to make -- and obviously failing at -- with my reference to "Death Be Not Proud," was that Jackson *might* have actually received his blessing in the form of his death, or been blessed with "much pleasure" (Donne's phrase) that we cannot see. Who knows? We don't. We only see what we can see (1 Corinthians 13:12, if you want a scripture reference). Is God powerful or not?

Finally, as regards your claim that warriors cannot and do not receive honors from God, I would note that Joshua is one of the fiercest, most single-minded warriors in the Old Testament, responsible for the deaths of thousands of Canaanites in the capture of the Promised Land, but known for his obedience to God, and undeniably given honors and rights of leadership by God and lifetime reverence by his people. That is scriptural. (Joshua 4:14).

I suspect you will disagree and probably even mock and call "ridiculous" my explanation for citing John Donne. Be my guest. I've spent way too much time on this already.

I agree with at least one of your points, one that I would like to address, and that is: We do not know Jackson's prayers or wishes.

Without that insight, we may, will probably never, know whether God granted those prayers to any extent.

I always imagined that Jackson prayed for the Union soldier's bullets not to hit him, which is why he fell by Confederate fire.
 

Cycom

Corporal
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Los Angeles, California
"People like you," as Lurid so ungraciously and judgmentally addressed me -- People like me generally avoid arguing about religion *or* spirituality. Indeed, in the fight-or-flight choice, I'm usually out the door and down the street before the phrase is finished being uttered. But when a comment of mine is denigrated as "ridiculous," I might step up and offer a brief defense.

First, I would take issue with Lurid referring to the poet John Donne as "secular." Secular means "denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis." While Donne in his youth did carouse and chase women and write sensual poetry, he later became a member of the clergy of the Church of England and is known for writing many sermons (one composed and delivered by leaving his deathbed). His legacy as a metaphysical poet is hardly secular. Now, I'm no expert on John Donne, but his poem "Death Be Not Proud," one of his several so-called Holy Sonnets, is as spiritual a look as you can get outside of 1 Corinthians 15 of the triumph of life over death.

Death, be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;
For those whom thou think'st thou dost overthrow
Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.

From rest and sleep, which but thy pictures be,
Much pleasure; then from thee much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee do go,
Rest of their bones, and soul's delivery.
Thou art slave to fate, chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,
And poppy or charms can make us sleep as well
And better than thy stroke; why swell'st thou then?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally
And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die.
[Emphasis mine]


"Death, thou shalt die," (note the comma -- it is Death that dies, not man) is consistent with the Orthodox Christian view that Christ himself defeated death by His own death on the cross and resurrection and ascension. You can dismiss this as "religion," but I know you will find in many other "spiritual" traditions and practices the refutation that Death is "mighty" or has the final say.

Again, I'm not going to argue theology, only attempt to counter your claim that Donne is a secular, not a spiritual poet. Nevertheless, I did not cite "Death Be Not Proud" because I wanted to draw attention to John Donne. I wanted to draw attention to his thesis -- and my own faith -- that someone dying (in this case Stonewall Jackson, who is reputed to have been a devoutly spiritual man) might have been blessed in his death in ways that we cannot see or imagine. That's my second point.

You wrote, "George Washington was extremely religious, but he was on the winning side and he stayed alive, so his spirituality in not questioned. It appears God intervened on his behalf, but it appears God did not intervene on Jackson's behalf." Scripturally, look at Psalm 116:15 ("The death of his saints is precious to the Lord") and Isaiah 55:8-9 ("My thoughts are not your thoughts..."). The point I was trying to make -- and obviously failing at -- with my reference to "Death Be Not Proud," was that Jackson *might* have actually received his blessing in the form of his death, or been blessed with "much pleasure" (Donne's phrase) that we cannot see. Who knows? We don't. We only see what we can see (1 Corinthians 13:12, if you want a scripture reference). Is God powerful or not?

Finally, as regards your claim that warriors cannot and do not receive honors from God, I would note that Joshua is one of the fiercest, most single-minded warriors in the Old Testament, responsible for the deaths of thousands of Canaanites in the capture of the Promised Land, but known for his obedience to God, and undeniably given honors and rights of leadership by God and lifetime reverence by his people. That is scriptural. (Joshua 4:14).

I suspect you will disagree and probably even mock and call "ridiculous" my explanation for citing John Donne. Be my guest. I've spent way too much time on this already.
Graciously stated. I’ve considered giving my further two cents but it would likely be pointless. I just don’t understand the condescension…it’s completely unnecessary.
 

Peace Society

Corporal
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Location
Ark Mo line
First, God does not chastise people through war, that misses the purpose of discipline. Here's your scripture: James 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? Man starts wars, period.

Second, how logically is it to think that God chastised the entire country for what NYC was doing? Here's your scripture: Genesis 19:24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven. It seems to me God judged Sodom and Gomorrah and speared the rest of the Middle East. I'm quite sure God could have judged NYC and speared the rest of the USA. Here's another scripture regarding chastisement: Hebrews 12: 5-85 ​And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,6 ​because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” 7 ​Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 ​If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. I severely doubt God was chastising the USA for what NYC did by sending over 1 million men to their death, that's not the idea behind chastisement.

Third, your post would not be more appropriate under economics and just demeans your argument. The Gilded Age the subsequent age following the war the entire country prospered way more than the Antebellum era. At the end of the Gilded Age and beginning of the progressive age 5 percent of the national income gone to families in the upper one-one-hundredth of a percent of the income distribution — currently, the almost 15,000 families with incomes of $9.5 million or more a year.(analysis of tax returns by the economists Emmanuel Saez at the University of California, Berkeley and Thomas Piketty at the Paris School of Economics). People prospered more after the war than before it, so that throws a wrench into that theory. According to that theory, we can say WW1 was because of prosperity, then WW2 and so on and so on. Consequently, there's more prosperity now with tech giants than ever, so there must be war in the near future to stop prosperity, but no war ever did.

Finally, the south caused the Civil War because its entire identity and economy was wrapped up in slavery. They knew the Republicans were going to release the slaves from servitude, and that is why one Lincoln had it in the bag they fired shots at FT Sumter.
I believe you are actually replying to Mr. Smith. Unfortunately, you have missed him by many decades. Or maybe fortunately. I have heard that some of these men could be very biting and harsh when arguing about doctrine. Perhaps I should have posted the source at the beginning instead of at the end. Personally, I would be happy to argue some of these points with you, but our focus is on the Civil War and what they believed and felt. I present the post for the purpose of showing contemporary comments on spirituality and, incidentally, economics.
 

DixieRifles

Captain
Member of the Year
Regtl. Staff Shiloh 2020
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Location
Collierville, TN
Nobody can prove whether or not Jackson was sincere or not, for all we know he could have been a wolf in sheep's clothing. It's just a touchy subject.
I would like to read some more of this topic but I can see how it could get “touchy”. Despite Lincoln’s folksy sayings, I have read an article about Lincoln’s beliefs that were not exactly biblical.
 

Lubliner

Captain
Forum Host
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Location
Chattanooga, Tennessee
@lurid I am sorry of I did take your comment as a cynical response to @Booklady. First you quoted numerous passages that really had no point for justifying any faith of their beliefs. I am not making my point clear, sorry about that again. Why justify those men in that era? Sure, scripture can prove nearly any cause if taken as highlighted. But these men had core values that were based on religious upbringing, and to understand their motivations one must understand the depth of their own convictions. The whole was has a religious angle to it, and many of the leaders were very devout, even old 'Rosey' with his Catholic worry beads. The idea of any devoted thread to me would be set fully at naught if we compared our beliefs to theirs or even tried to distinguish which verses they clung to for core values, such as the Confederate Vice-President, who so much as said 'Egyptians had slaves, so we do too.' The masses of the people that fought were brought up in an atmosphere that was extremely more oriented to foundations of faith than we are. I could almost call them fanatical, such as Stonewall. Sorry if I had been unclear and had blurbed the intent of wat I took your response to be. I was really thinking of the comment about a single sub-forum on this aspect I mention, and really no other. Thanks for your patience.
Lubliner.
 

Lubliner

Captain
Forum Host
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Location
Chattanooga, Tennessee
It’s called a rosary, and I find this comment highly offensive 😉
I am sorry. I do not mean offence with it. It had been mentioned by General Dana or another Staff Officer when Rosecrans had retreated back into Chattanooga, that he had sat there with the rosary beads, rubbing them in his hands. My apology.
Lubliner.
 

Cycom

Corporal
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Los Angeles, California
I am sorry. I do not mean offence with it. It had been mentioned by General Dana or another Staff Officer when Rosecrans had retreated back into Chattanooga, that he had sat there with the rosary beads, rubbing them in his hands. My apology.
Lubliner.
No apologies necessary @Lubliner

I am a practicing Catholic but am not offended by such things. I assure you my comment was lighthearted.

I think the board needs an “all in good fun” emoji because the winking one isn’t cutting it anymore.
 

Lubliner

Captain
Forum Host
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Location
Chattanooga, Tennessee
No apologies necessary @Lubliner

I am a practicing Catholic but am not offended by such things. I assure you my comment was lighthearted.

I think the board needs an “all in good fun” emoji because the winking one isn’t cutting it anymore.
I try to remain highly respectful to any religious belief others may be devoted to. I do own a Douay-Rheims Bible to gain access to the apocrypha, me being highly secular in my personal views. I thought I had actually committed a grave sin. I am still wiping off the perspiration. Thanks for the clarification.
Lubliner.
 

atlantis

Sergeant Major
Joined
Nov 12, 2016
Pre war you had the great awakening so both sections of the country were primed for a Christian revival. Also pre war you had denominations splitting over issues like slavery and other social issues, Maine for example became first state to enact prohibition.
 
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