Discussion Spirituality And Religion

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I've found something to answer that question:

"They came as teenagers from every state in the Union, wearing every mode of dress from country homespun to tailored city surcoats. In their freshman were officially known as plebes (perhaps from plebeian, ‘a commoner’), though upperclassmen called them ‘things, ‘animals,’ ‘reptiles,’ and ‘beasts.’ Despite their differences, these young men were united by a shared distinction: each of them had passed stiff entrance requirements. Each had been appointed by a U.S. congressman, was no younger than 16 and no older than 21, measured at least five feet tall, had no deformities, and was fit for the rigors of military duty. Each one had demonstrated proficiency in fundamental arithmetic. And every one of them was single; even overtly having a girlfriend was grounds for dismissal.

They were the antebellum cadets of the United States Military Academy at West Point. And although these scrawny schoolboys could not foresee it, they would one day face each other in battle, leading rival American armies in a hard-fought civil war."

https://www.historynet.com/life-at-west-point-of-future-professional-american-civil-war-officers.htm

And this:

By the common law the age of majority is fixed at twenty-one years for both sexes, and, in the absence of any statute to the contrary, every person under that age, whether male or female, is an infant.

-- The American and English Encyclopedia of Law, Garland and McGeehee, 1900

Was there even a standard of education back then? In studying a local college here, students were often 16 or younger, the college had to form a lower college to get students up to speed for the actual college.

I dont think there was an equivalent of high school then at all, most communities built their own schools and hired their own teacher for probally a 6th to 8th grade education?

It struck me rather odd how rudimentary the education they came with was......…yet were expected to do college in Latin and Hebrew......
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2017
Was there even a standard of education back then? In studying a local college here, students were often 16 or younger, the college had to form a lower college to get students up to speed for the actual college.

I dont think there was an equivalent of high school then at all, most communities built their own schools and hired their own teacher for probally a 6th to 8th grade education?

It struck me rather odd how rudimentary the education they came with was......…yet were expected to do college in Latin and Hebrew......
From my recollection, Abraham Lincoln didn't have much of an education, yet was able to work his way up to becoming a lawyer and finally President of the United States. And that with far reaching results for the country. No one could doubt Lincoln's inherent wisdom.

So, what's interesting to me about that is a minimal standard of education did not prevent people from great achievements.

Also, Lincoln was another who was not a church attendee or beholden to any particular faith.
 

Peace Society

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Lincoln devoured any books he could get ahold of. His father didn't like it, but his step-mother encouraged him.

He never joined a church but there was one he attended more than others. I think I remember reading of him saying something to the effect that when he found a church whose sole doctrine was "do unto others..." he would join it.
 

Peace Society

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Does anyone know where this incident is from? The author gives 365 historical snippets and no clues to where in his wide reading he ran across them.


Shortly after the Civil War two men crossing the Atlantic listened to a rich tenor voice singing on deck in the moonlight, “Jesus, Lover of My Soul.” When he stopped, one of the men asked if he had been in the war. “Yes. I fought on the Confederate side.” “Were you in __ at this time __?”

“Yes, and a curious thing happened that night. I was on picket alone at the edge of a dark wood. The night was cold, and I was lonely and not a little frightened because the enemy was close. I was homesick and miserable too. About midnight, when everything was still, I began to feel unusually depressed and frightened. So I began to sing this hymn softly. When I came to the verse, ‘All my trust on Thee is stayed, all my help from Thee I bring: cover my defenseless head with the shadow of Thy wing’, a beautiful peace came over me, and I was no longer afraid.”

“Now,” said the first man, “listen to my story. I was a Union soldier with a party of sharpshooters and scouts in those woods that very night. We saw you outlined against the sky. My men focused their rifles on you, when suddenly we heard those words sung, ‘Cover my defenseless head with the shadow of Thy wing.’ I said, ‘Boys, put down your rifles. We can’t shoot now.’”

- from The Promises of God by H. M. S. Richards; Review and Herald, Washington, D.C. 1956.
 
Joined
Mar 1, 2019
Does anyone know where this incident is from? The author gives 365 historical snippets and no clues to where in his wide reading he ran across them.


Shortly after the Civil War two men crossing the Atlantic listened to a rich tenor voice singing on deck in the moonlight, “Jesus, Lover of My Soul.” When he stopped, one of the men asked if he had been in the war. “Yes. I fought on the Confederate side.” “Were you in __ at this time __?”

“Yes, and a curious thing happened that night. I was on picket alone at the edge of a dark wood. The night was cold, and I was lonely and not a little frightened because the enemy was close. I was homesick and miserable too. About midnight, when everything was still, I began to feel unusually depressed and frightened. So I began to sing this hymn softly. When I came to the verse, ‘All my trust on Thee is stayed, all my help from Thee I bring: cover my defenseless head with the shadow of Thy wing’, a beautiful peace came over me, and I was no longer afraid.”

“Now,” said the first man, “listen to my story. I was a Union soldier with a party of sharpshooters and scouts in those woods that very night. We saw you outlined against the sky. My men focused their rifles on you, when suddenly we heard those words sung, ‘Cover my defenseless head with the shadow of Thy wing.’ I said, ‘Boys, put down your rifles. We can’t shoot now.’”

- from The Promises of God by H. M. S. Richards; Review and Herald, Washington, D.C. 1956.
Does anyone know where this incident is from? The author gives 365 historical snippets and no clues to where in his wide reading he ran across them.


Shortly after the Civil War two men crossing the Atlantic listened to a rich tenor voice singing on deck in the moonlight, “Jesus, Lover of My Soul.” When he stopped, one of the men asked if he had been in the war. “Yes. I fought on the Confederate side.” “Were you in __ at this time __?”

“Yes, and a curious thing happened that night. I was on picket alone at the edge of a dark wood. The night was cold, and I was lonely and not a little frightened because the enemy was close. I was homesick and miserable too. About midnight, when everything was still, I began to feel unusually depressed and frightened. So I began to sing this hymn softly. When I came to the verse, ‘All my trust on Thee is stayed, all my help from Thee I bring: cover my defenseless head with the shadow of Thy wing’, a beautiful peace came over me, and I was no longer afraid.”

“Now,” said the first man, “listen to my story. I was a Union soldier with a party of sharpshooters and scouts in those woods that very night. We saw you outlined against the sky. My men focused their rifles on you, when suddenly we heard those words sung, ‘Cover my defenseless head with the shadow of Thy wing.’ I said, ‘Boys, put down your rifles. We can’t shoot now.’”

- from The Promises of God by H. M. S. Richards; Review and Herald, Washington, D.C. 1956.

I have seen the same anecdote from a different source, and will try to locate it in my files over the next few days. In my own forthcoming book (First Chaplain of the Confederacy: Father Darius Hubert, S.J., LSU Press), due out in a couple of weeks, there's another anecdote involving this same hymn -- sung by Confederate prisoners in Fort McHenry (the "Baltimore Bastille") after Gettysburg. Its lyrics were, for good reason, deeply affecting to men on both sides of the conflict.
 

johnsneed

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I am not sure where else to put this thread. Is there a forum for discussions of the role of spirituality and/or religion in the civil war? I don't want to start an argument. I just want to discuss how people viewed the war with respect to their own or someone else's religious beliefs or lack thereof.

When I joined this forum I had just finished my Master's degree in military history. My Master's thesis was about the way the Civil War affected the beliefs of Southern Baptists. I have posted the location of my thesis before but offer it here again to add to this discussion.

You can download it here: https://www.academia.edu/35090779/The_Effects_of_the_Civil_War_on_Southern_Baptist_Beliefs


Anyway, I hope this adds to the thread.

John Sneed
 

Peace Society

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I have seen the same anecdote from a different source, and will try to locate it in my files over the next few days. In my own forthcoming book (First Chaplain of the Confederacy: Father Darius Hubert, S.J., LSU Press), due out in a couple of weeks, there's another anecdote involving this same hymn -- sung by Confederate prisoners in Fort McHenry (the "Baltimore Bastille") after Gettysburg. Its lyrics were, for good reason, deeply affecting to men on both sides of the conflict.
I would be interested to know which tune they likely used - the 1835 or the 1861 - or some other of the same meter?
 

Booklady

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New England
Does anyone know where this incident is from? The author gives 365 historical snippets and no clues to where in his wide reading he ran across them.


Shortly after the Civil War two men crossing the Atlantic listened to a rich tenor voice singing on deck in the moonlight, “Jesus, Lover of My Soul.” When he stopped, one of the men asked if he had been in the war. “Yes. I fought on the Confederate side.” “Were you in __ at this time __?”

“Yes, and a curious thing happened that night. I was on picket alone at the edge of a dark wood. The night was cold, and I was lonely and not a little frightened because the enemy was close. I was homesick and miserable too. About midnight, when everything was still, I began to feel unusually depressed and frightened. So I began to sing this hymn softly. When I came to the verse, ‘All my trust on Thee is stayed, all my help from Thee I bring: cover my defenseless head with the shadow of Thy wing’, a beautiful peace came over me, and I was no longer afraid.”

“Now,” said the first man, “listen to my story. I was a Union soldier with a party of sharpshooters and scouts in those woods that very night. We saw you outlined against the sky. My men focused their rifles on you, when suddenly we heard those words sung, ‘Cover my defenseless head with the shadow of Thy wing.’ I said, ‘Boys, put down your rifles. We can’t shoot now.’”

- from The Promises of God by H. M. S. Richards; Review and Herald, Washington, D.C. 1956.
Your book sounds like a wonderful daily devotional.
 

Booklady

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New England
Imo, discussing any war general's religious views who fought and died, killed people and was part of a losing effort to sustain slavery is highly subject to ridicule and critique. Nobody can prove whether or not Jackson was sincere or not, for all we know he could have been a wolf in sheep's clothing. It's just a touchy subject.

I am no expert on Jackson, but I would think that if he were a Bible believing man he would have followed the dictates of scripture in submitting himself to the laws and authorities he believed God had placed above him. I don't have any difficulty believing that, given all I've heard about Jackson and what I know of the New Testament. Submitting to the law of the land and its rulers you believe God has allowed, and agreeing with it (and them) can get two different things.

There's an awkward, uncomfortable scene in the movie Gods and Generals, where Jackson and his cook (servant? slave?) are praying together, and Jim, the cook, questions (in prayer) how otherwise good God-fearing Christian men can fight on the side of keeping people enslaved. I need to watch that scene again. I want to see Jackson's response again. I don't think he took offense at Jim's prayer, but he also didn't set him free.
 

Booklady

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Precisely my point. According to mainstrm religious dogma, Jackson was on a losing side and died prematurely so his religiosity did not garner him any favor. I'm not saying that's the case, but like I said the other day any author in their right mind wouldn't try to delve into that subject because it is too finite and is subject to ridicule and critique. George Washington was extremely religious, but he was on the winning side and he stayed alive, so his spirituality in not questioned. It appears God intervened on his behalf, but it appears God did not intervene on Jackson's behalf. This is how some people view things. Imo, it would be in good taste if Jackson's so-called spirituality would be continued to be overlooked.

On the other hand, and from a perspective not centered on *this* world, maybe God honored Jackson's "religiosity" by an intervention that you don't even recognize. Read John Donne's "Death Be Not Proud."
 

Peace Society

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On the other hand, and from a perspective not centered on *this* world, maybe God honored Jackson's "religiosity" by an intervention that you don't even recognize. Read John Donne's "Death Be Not Proud."
It is interesting that the 3 most honored men of the war Lincoln, Lee, and Jackson, might be said to be the 3 most religious. Little bad is thought or said of these 3 down to this day.
 
Joined
Mar 1, 2019
I would be interested to know which tune they likely used - the 1835 or the 1861 - or some other of the same meter?
A great question. I have a reprint copy of the (Confederate) Army and Navy Prayer Book from 1864, which includes the hymn but without musical notation. As you may know (and I forgot to mention in my previous post), the text was slightly revised in the war context from "Jesus, Lover of my Soul" (Charles Wesley's original words) to "Jesus, Savior of my Soul." Other than that, the lyrics were retained as written, though only two verses were typically featured.
 

GwilymT

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A great question. I have a reprint copy of the (Confederate) Army and Navy Prayer Book from 1864, which includes the hymn but without musical notation. As you may know (and I forgot to mention in my previous post), the text was slightly revised in the war context from "Jesus, Lover of my Soul" (Charles Wesley's original words) to "Jesus, Savior of my Soul." Other than that, the lyrics were retained as written, though only two verses were typically featured.
This is interesting. As we all know, the tempo of a song and slight lyrical changes can change the feeling and thus meaning. Watching with interest.
 

GwilymT

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I am no expert on Jackson, but I would think that if he were a Bible believing man he would have followed the dictates of scripture in submitting himself to the laws and authorities he believed God had placed above him. I don't have any difficulty believing that, given all I've heard about Jackson and what I know of the New . Submitting to the law of the land and its rulers you believe God has allowed, and agreeing with it (and them) can get two different things.

There's an awkward, uncomfortable scene in the movie Gods and Generals, where Jackson and his cook (servant? slave?) are praying together, and Jim, the cook, questions (in prayer) how otherwise good God-fearing Christian men can fight on the side of keeping people enslaved. I need to watch that scene again. I want to see Jackson's response again. I don't think he took offense at Jim's prayer, but he also didn't set him free.

I think it should be very clear that Jackson and much of the slaveholding south looked upon slavery and their (confederate) rebellion as God’s work. There are countless examples of southern preachers sermonizing both slavery and secession as God’s will. Further, the pastors exhorted their listeners to take up arms in defense of slavery and the south. This is equally balanced by northern preachers exhorting their congregations about the dangers of disunion and the dangers of the slave power.

The religious angle is indeed ignored and should be studied and understood.
 
Joined
Mar 1, 2019
This is interesting. As we all know, the tempo of a song and slight lyrical changes can change the feeling and thus meaning. Watching with interest.
I would be interested to know which tune they likely used - the 1835 or the 1861 - or some other of the same meter?
My strong hunch, in answer to the earlier question, is that the musical setting used in the war was that of Simeon Marsh (1834), a tune called "Martyn." It was a well established melody by that time, and eminently singable by untrained voices. A Catholic soldier who heard it, probably for the first time, in the Army of Northern Virginia camps, referred to it as a "hymn with a twang" -- doubtless a disparaging comment on his part, given the musical tastes of his own church. The other most common setting is that of Joseph Parry ("Aberystwyth"), but though it is often used now it post-dates the war.
 

Peace Society

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Jesus, Lover of My Soul - John Wesley 1746
The tune I am familiar with is Martyn by Simeon B Marsh 1834
The newer tune, which I have heard but don't know, is Hollingside by John B Dykes 1861
Both are 7.7.7.7.D.
I have not personally encountered any other tunes to this hymn, but just for experimentation have tried some tunes of the same meter. A tune can become so associated with the words that anything else can sound strange.
However, in that day and age, hymn books were just the words, and the song-leader would select an appropriately metered melody.
 
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Peace Society

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This might actually be more appropriate under Economics.



A Feature of the Times.


GOD is chastening the nation for its sins, yet who thinks of being humbled. While a deplorable civil war is desolating a large portion of the country, and bereavement, sorrow, and mourning, are in tens of thousands of families, the rage for amusement and pleasure, and a disposition to throw off every serious feeling, was never so great, and the exhibitions of the pride of life never so extensive and disgusting. As a specimen, read from the Independent the following description of the unparalleled strides of pride, luxury, and extravagance in the city of New York:



Never, since the Pilgrims landed on these shores, was there such universal prosperity—in the loyal states—as at the present moment. Merchants have made more money during the past two years, than ever before in twice that space of time. Mechanics are, and have been, crowded with work, at high wages. Farmers and laboring men are investing large sums of money in government and other stocks, or are piling it up in savings-banks. Manufacturers, as a whole, are making semi-annual fortunes. Speculators are more numerous than our soldiers on the battle-field. Almost every other business man is dabbling more or less in stocks, or is in some way connected with a government contract; and as for Wall street, never was there such a financial millennium, as since the present rebellion. Millionaires can now be counted there by dozens. Princes are on every block, and bankers are "as thick as blackberries." Who, at the North, would ever think of war, if he had not a friend in the army, or did not read the newspapers? So much on the subject of making money. Now what can be said about spending it? Go into Broadway— not to "Webster's unabridged"—and we will show you what is meant by the word, extravagance. Ask Stewart about the demand for camel's-hair shawls, and he will say, "Monstrous." Ask Tiffany what kind of diamonds and pearls are called for. He will answer, "The prodigious—as near hen's eggs size as possible," — "price no object." What kind of carpetings are now wanted? None but "extra." Brussels and velvets are now used from basement to garret. Ingrains and three-plys don't do at all. Call a moment at a carriage depository. In reply to your first question you will be told, "Never such demand before, sir." And as for horses, the medium-priced, five-hundred- dollar kind are all out of market. A good pair of fast ones, "all right," will go for a thousand dollars, quicker than a basket of strawberries will sell for f-o-u-r cents. Those a little extra will bring fifteen hundred or two thousand, while the superb sort will bring any price among the "high numbers."



The apostle describes a certain time when men shall be covetous, when every advantage shall be taken, and all means resorted to, to aggrandize and gratify self, when the natural affections of men's hearts shall then be turned out of usual channels, or rather, when they shall be " without natural affection," and when an all absorbing spirit of worldliness and irreligion shall envelop and swallow up mankind. The apostle is also careful to state that these days are the last days of this world's existence; and what if our own times answer the description? U.S. [editor Uriah Smith]



From: Advent Review and Sabbath Herald July 7, 1863
 
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