Some dare call it freedom split from Oh Pooh its Confederate History Month

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I did, you ignored it..........................The freedom and constitutional right to take their property into the Federal Territories, a right that Lincoln, his Administration, and the Republicans were strongly against.

Lincoln, in fact was not willing to back away from denying their constitutional right.

I suppose that is one freedom to fight for, your constitutional right.

Respectfully,
William
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So the Civil War was about slavery after all. For Confederates freedom means oppressing folks who are darker then them.Finally we can agree on something:showoff:
Leftyhunter
 
To make the point, four slave states did not succeed. There was no sudden disbanding of government in those states and the level of martial law, though disturbing, was not comparable to what happened in the states that succeeded. Baltimore and St. Louis returned to civil rule. Louisville functioned as mid-west city for most of the war and prospered. The western counties of Virginia succeeded from a state that had succeeded, and were provided a strange kind of statehood that could only have happened with Virginia in rebellion. States that did not succeed eventually lost slavery, but that was only through the constitutional process, contorted by four years of civil war.
No non-slave state succeeded. No non-slave state ever seriously attempted to succeed.

With all due respect, what you said about one of those slave states, Missouri, is completely wrong. The war came fast and hard to the state and forever changed it. But that would be a topic of another thread, and I would be happy to discuss it there.

Regards,
Booner
 
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"we should turn a blind eye to the depravities of the southern Constitution" How do you prove "depravities " except by mid 20th century standards and later. Can you justify making such ex post facto judgments as a standard for a people for who such standards did not exist?

I am agnostic toward morality in history. I leave morality to preachers and philosophers.
Didn't nineteenth century abolitionists and black people find slavery repugnant? Plus most of Latin America and all of Europe other then Spain had outlawed slavery pre 1861.
Leftyhunter
 
Hi Nat,

Yes I agree, it is just astounding what the gallant Confederate's had to over come. I am also equally amazed that it took the Union 4 long years to win the war.

The Union had the largest population, the bigger military, the abundance of material one would need for war.

They then added......

The Free Black
The escaped/free slave
The deserting Confederates
The Union siding Confederates

and when they still could not get enough man power to put down those small in numbers Confederates, even though they also claim that patriotism and Unionism was extremely high........They had to resort to a......

Unpopular and forceable draft...


Respectfully,
William
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I created a whole thread in honor of my good friend @CSA Today " by what metric was the Confederate soldier superior". It covers your wuestions rather nicely. The Northern draft was not at all like Confederate conscription I cover that in my thread " how serious was Northern desrtion".
Leftyhunter
 
Greetings Ryan, Hope you are doing well.

If you asked me, I would say they fought for their independence to govern themselves as they see fit, and include whatever institution, or not include whatever institution, they deemed fit to include.

The ironic part is the U.S. fought a war to force the Confederacy to remain a part of a free nation :confused::confused::confused:...........Key word is FORCED.

You force someone to remain a part of what is called freedom......The Confederacy became a slave to the United States...........In as much as being forced to remain.


Respectfully,
William
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The Confederacy had to force young men into joining the Confederate army and even shot and hung women to find out the location of conscript evaders. I have sources in my thread" how serious was desertion in the CSA?"
Leftyhunter
 
Didn't nineteenth century abolitionists and black people find slavery repugnant? Plus most of Latin America and all of Europe other then Spain had outlawed slavery pre 1861.
Leftyhunter

Exactly what authority do the foreigners have to judge US citizens? Can non citizens get to declare what is moral for a society. Abolitionists were being chased out of town, getting their presses burned in 1860 and Lincoln avoided them when possible. What exactly is repugnant? Philosophers been arguing what morality is for ages. Who in your opinion gets to decide what is moral for a society.
 
Exactly what authority do the foreigners have to judge US citizens?

The same authority that allowed non-Germans in the 1940s to judge Nazi Germany [and no, I'm not saying confederates were Nazis].

Can non citizens get to declare what is moral for a society.

Could non-Germans declare the Nazis were not moral? [And no, I'm not saying confederates were Nazis]


Abolitionists were being chased out of town, getting their presses burned in 1860 and Lincoln avoided them when possible.

Lincoln avoided being linked politically with abolitionists. That's not repugnant, that's smart politics because you can't implement your policies if you aren't elected.

What exactly is repugnant? Philosophers been arguing what morality is for ages. Who in your opinion gets to decide what is moral for a society.

Obviously, I do. :smug:
 
Exactly what authority do the foreigners have to judge US citizens? Can non citizens get to declare what is moral for a society. Abolitionists were being chased out of town, getting their presses burned in 1860 and Lincoln avoided them when possible. What exactly is repugnant? Philosophers been arguing what morality is for ages. Who in your opinion gets to decide what is moral for a society.
My point is many Americans by 1861 did indeed feel slavery was morally repugnant. What percentage we will never know since scientific political polling wouldn't occur until the 1944 presidential election. Certainly their is anododeal evidence has the large memorials for John Brown. Abolitionists had major societies and were not run out of all towns. Chase among others was a major abolitionist.
Foreign public opinion counted bigly. The Confederates did try to influence European public opinion by paying for favorable newspaper editorials per one of our more knowledgeable posters. A major reason why no European country fought on behalf of the Confederacy was lack of popular support for the Confederacy.
Young European men did sail to American ports to join the Union Army.
They did not sail on European flagged vessels to Montomoros, Mexico and cross the Rio Grande River to join the Confederate Army in Brownsville, Texas.
Leftyhunter
 
My point is many Americans by 1861 did indeed feel slavery was morally repugnant. What percentage we will never know since scientific political polling wouldn't occur until the 1944 presidential election. Certainly their is anododeal evidence has the large memorials for John Brown. Abolitionists had major societies and were not run out of all towns. Chase among others was a major abolitionist.
Foreign public opinion counted bigly. The Confederates did try to influence European public opinion by paying for favorable newspaper editorials per one of our more knowledgeable posters. A major reason why no European country fought on behalf of the Confederacy was lack of popular support for the Confederacy.
Young European men did sail to American ports to join the Union Army.
They did not sail on European flagged vessels to Montomoros, Mexico and cross the Rio Grande River to join the Confederate Army in Brownsville, Texas.
Leftyhunter
Only parts of slavery were morally repugnant. The trans-Atlantic slave trade was repugnant. Slave markets were repugnant. Breaking up families and not having free black churches was repugnant.
Corporal punishment was repugnant.
But working long hours at mind numbing unskilled work was non-repugnant. Not being able to vote and not getting an education was not scrutinized very closely for 80 years after the Civil War.
Blacks were not equal and not economically free in the North either. No one in 1865 had a very good idea of what a multi-racial society would like and after about 12 years they gave up trying to build one.
 
I created a whole thread in honor of my good friend @CSA Today " by what metric was the Confederate soldier superior". It covers your wuestions rather nicely. The Northern draft was not at all like Confederate conscription I cover that in my thread " how serious was Northern desrtion".
Leftyhunter
Are you insinuating the average Confederate soldier was a "superman?"
 
My point is many Americans by 1861 did indeed feel slavery was morally repugnant. What percentage we will never know since scientific political polling wouldn't occur until the 1944 presidential election. Certainly their is anododeal evidence has the large memorials for John Brown. Abolitionists had major societies and were not run out of all towns. Chase among others was a major abolitionist.
Foreign public opinion counted bigly. The Confederates did try to influence European public opinion by paying for favorable newspaper editorials per one of our more knowledgeable posters. A major reason why no European country fought on behalf of the Confederacy was lack of popular support for the Confederacy.
Young European men did sail to American ports to join the Union Army.
They did not sail on European flagged vessels to Montomoros, Mexico and cross the Rio Grande River to join the Confederate Army in Brownsville, Texas.
Leftyhunter
Noted.
 
If I adhered to your rules for commemoration -- much of US history for starters. I doubt I would find much to commemorate other than family events and perhaps religious holidays.
Well, any of those would be more honorable than fighting just to keep a whole race enslaved.

Kevin Dally
 
You must be looking at history with one eye closed.........

"On February 4, 1861 the six seceding Southern states (with Texas joining them later) met in the Montgomery, Alabama, Convention to form the Confederate States of America. The 50 delegates organized a

Provisional Confederate Congress;

created a new government;

adopted a Confederate Constitution;

elected Jefferson Davis and Alexander Stephens as provisional president and vice president, respectively;

adopted a flag;

authorized a Confederate army;

issued $15 million in treasury bonds; and

created a cabinet.

Source: Historical Dictionary of the Civil War, p. 11, by Terry Jones


Then fought the over powering Union for 4 long years !!!.......


Respectfully,
William
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And died a horrible death, with the President running away!

Kevin Dally
 
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