SNY belt plate types--what do I have?

Taji04

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Jan 18, 2013
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OK all of you belt plate collectors, I have one for you.
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I picked up an SNY belt plate for a good price and a show last weekend. I had been poking around for quite awhile looking for one, examining photographic material, books and etc to distinguish fakes from originals. I think that I have a pretty good handle on it, but not 100%

Soooooo.... I pick up this plate. Most plates are puppy paw, this is arrow hooks. I have O'Donnell's book, and of course, it doesn't really fit the the plates he illustrates. It is 55mm x 86mm (with in .5mm each way of O'Donnell's measurements). It would likely be late war (due to the arrow hooks) but it is an early war die stamp used by the maker Pittman. The stamp is not quite crisp but consistent with some examples I have seen. It has a honey patina and appears aged on the back. The hooks are rounded a bit and the tongue is short and straight. (SEE THE PHOTOS) There are two pics with a repro on top and the plate in question on the bottom.

I have seen that belt plates do not fall into any specific categories per se, but generally have parameters that certain types and styles fall into. O'Donnell's book amply illustrates this point. NOT an exact science by any stretch of the imagination. Having said all of this, what the heck do I have here?
 

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OK all of you belt plate collectors, I have one for you.

I picked up an SNY belt plate for a good price and a show last weekend. I had been poking around for quite awhile looking for one, examining photographic material, books and etc to distinguish fakes from originals. I think that I have a pretty good handle on it, but not 100%

Soooooo.... I pick up this plate. Most plates are puppy paw, this is arrow hooks. I have O'Donnell's book, and of course, it doesn't really fit the the plates he illustrates. It is 55mm x 86mm (with in .5mm each way of O'Donnell's measurements). It would likely be late war (due to the arrow hooks) but it is an early war die stamp used by the maker Pittman. The stamp is not quite crisp but consistent with some examples I have seen. It has a honey patina and appears aged on the back. The hooks are rounded a bit and the tongue is short and straight. (SEE THE PHOTOS) There are two pics with a repro on top and the plate in question on the bottom.

I have seen that belt plates do not fall into any specific categories per se, but generally have parameters that certain types and styles fall into. O'Donnell's book amply illustrates this point. NOT an exact science by any stretch of the imagination. Having said all of this, what the heck do I have here?

I am going to preface this by saying I have not had a lot of experience with the New York belt plates. That being said the backfill looks a little off to me. Is it overfilled? Can you post a picture from the side? O'Donnell's book is great but the measurements are just for the photographed examples, the actual measurements could certainly vary from piece to piece. The obverse looks correct so my initial thought is this could be a post war restrike by either W. Stokes Kirk or Bannermans? This is just my initial guess, I could be wrong. Paging @Package4.
 
Its really hard to tell but something just doesn't look right about it but is very hard to judge items from photos. The majority of the SNY plate had puppy paw backs. All of the repops have arrowhead hooks which is why you shoud shy away from non-dug plate with arrow head hooks.
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I am going to preface this by saying I have not had a lot of experience with the New York belt plates. That being said the backfill looks a little off to me. Is it overfilled? Can you post a picture from the side? O'Donnell's book is great but the measurements are just for the photographed examples, the actual measurements could certainly vary from piece to piece. The obverse looks correct so my initial thought is this could be a post war restrike by either W. Stokes Kirk or Bannermans? This is just my initial guess, I could be wrong. Paging @Package4.

O'Donnell talks about Militia plates and arrow hooks 1863-65 and shows two examples. The measurements for the plate were for reference, and yup, they are in the ball park. Did Bannerman and this Kirk guy create copies just to sell after the war? Has anyone documented these plates for collector's reference (and protection!)? Or were they just selling government surplus that they purchased wholesale? Kind of like all the WW2 GI and German stuff that I could buy for pennies on the dollar as a kid. I have not heard of this aspect of the surplus market after the CW. Do you have a link or something that I can go to to find out more?

If Bannerman and Kirk did this with SNY plates, I would think that it would also put a lot of "original" items they sold under scrutiny if they did recreate stuff. Another thing I noticed is that O'Donnell, while it a good resource, is not all encompassing. Methinks that there are more than likely more variations that have not been cataloged. It's kind of like what shade of sky blue the Government really ordered when they left it up to each contractor's discretion to decide just what shade it was.
 
Its really hard to tell but something just doesn't look right about it but is very hard to judge items from photos. The majority of the SNY plate had puppy paw backs. All of the repops have arrowhead hooks which is why you shoud shy away from non-dug plate with arrow head hooks.
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I would agree with the puppy paw advice hands down (next one will be a puppy paw), yet O'Donnell clearly lists arrow hooks as late war in his book. The hooks themselves are definitely not repop. All the old repops I have seen don't look like these. I have seen hooks similar to this on a few US plates. I will also say that I got this from a very reliable collector here in MN who knows his stuff. You would likely recognize his name from both the collector's and ACW re-enactor community. He has been re-enacting since the 70's and he has also been collecting for 40 or so years, and has written a few books along the way.

Not to say that he couldn't be fooled, but he would have said something if it was suspect. I am just trying to pin down where this fits in the spectrum of the types that are out there. I will just ask him at our next meeting based on your advice just to be sure, but the "thrill of the hunt" has been fun too. As well as interacting with you all.
 
O'Donnell talks about Militia plates and arrow hooks 1863-65 and shows two examples. The measurements for the plate were for reference, and yup, they are in the ball park. Did Bannerman and this Kirk guy create copies just to sell after the war? Has anyone documented these plates for collector's reference (and protection!)? Or were they just selling government surplus that they purchased wholesale? Kind of like all the WW2 GI and German stuff that I could buy for pennies on the dollar as a kid. I have not heard of this aspect of the surplus market after the CW. Do you have a link or something that I can go to to find out more?

If Bannerman and Kirk did this with SNY plates, I would think that it would also put a lot of "original" items they sold under scrutiny if they did recreate stuff. Another thing I noticed is that O'Donnell, while it a good resource, is not all encompassing. Methinks that there are more than likely more variations that have not been cataloged. It's kind of like what shade of sky blue the Government really ordered when they left it up to each contractor's discretion to decide just what shade it was.

Bannerman and W. Stokes Kirk sold mostly surplus items. I don't recall where I read it but I'm pretty sure they acquired the die stamps for many of the belt and chest plates. I think the regulations changed in 1864 but like @ucvrelics.com pointed out most of the original buckles were puppy paw. I don't now if Bannerman or Kirk acquired state die stamps after this date but its possible. Every now and then you will see the initials WSK stamped on the front of a brass piece. This is a W. Stokes Kirk piece, he would also occasionally stamp his business name in the lead backfill. IIRC Bannerman and Kirk also would piece together "original" pieces from spare parts they acquired. I don't know that they necessarily did this to defraud anybody and it was likely early on so how can you fault them? This could certainly explain the use of arrow hooks instead of the more commonly seen puppy paws. Let's say they acquired 1000 belt plate skins and 1500 arrow hooks for belt plates. Individually not a lot of interest for them at the time, right? Put them together and slap some lead fill in there and voila, something that could be sold for a profit. Since they would have been doing this between the 1870s to the turn of the century the pieces develop the right patina and if done right could be impossible to tell from a "true" original. The Bannerman and Kirk pieces still have value but simply are not a "true" original piece. Again I'm not saying that's what your piece is but right now that wouldn't be outside of the realm of possibility. I will try to remember where I read about this but I'm sure if you googled their names a plethora of information would come up. Somebody else here may be able to shed more light on it.
 
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Bannerman and W. Stokes Kirk sold mostly surplus items. I don't recall where I read it but I'm pretty sure they acquired the die stamps for many of the belt and chest plates. I think the regulations changed in 1864 but like @ucvrelics.com pointed out most of the original buckles were puppy paw. I don't now if Bannerman or Kirk acquired state die stamps after this date but its possible. Every now and then you will see the initials WSK stamped on the front of a brass piece. This is a W. Stokes Kirk piece, he would also occasionally stamp his business name in the lead backfill. IIRC Bannerman and Kirk also would piece together "original" pieces from spare parts they acquired. I don't know that they necessarily did this to defraud anybody and it was likely early on so how can you fault them? This could certainly explain the use of arrow hooks instead of the more commonly seen puppy paws. Let's say they acquired 1000 belt plate skins and 1500 arrow hooks for belt plates. Individually not a lot of interest for them at the time, right? Put them together and slap some lead fill in there and voila, something that could be sold for a profit. Since they would have been doing this between the 1870s to the turn of the century the pieces develop the right patina and if done right could be impossible to tell from a "true" original. The Bannerman and Kirk pieces still have value but simply are not a "true" original piece. Again I'm not saying that's what your piece is but right now that wouldn't be outside of the realm of possibility. I will try to remember where I read about this but I'm sure if you googled their names a plethora of information would come up. Somebody else here may be able to shed more light on it.


Very good. It looks like I will have to do more digging. Belt plate identification after 150 years seems rather iffy at times. This Bannerman/Kirk thing sure is a curve ball. I sure hope that Bannerman and Kirk didn't make up too many post war plates of any kind, then there would be a lot of disappointed folks out there if they discovered that their belt plates could be a fantasy creation.
 
Very good. It looks like I will have to do more digging. Belt plate identification after 150 years seems rather iffy at times. This Bannerman/Kirk thing sure is a curve ball. I sure hope that Bannerman and Kirk didn't make up too many post war plates of any kind, then there would be a lot of disappointed folks out there if they discovered that their belt plates could be a fantasy creation.
I'm not sure how many restrikes were made, probably no way to say for sure. I also remember reading that Kirk had a Hardee hat pin stamp that they used so much it cracked. That didnt stop them from using it so some of the restrikes are supposedly easy to spot, they have a crack above the eagle.

I found a link from Treasurenet that talks briefly about Stokes Kirk restrike here
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/290778-civil-war-eagle-breast-plate-initials.html

If in doubt you can always send pictures to Dave Taylor and/or Harry Ridgeway. They are both willing to give their expert analysis of Civil War items. Harry Ridgeway has a pretty extensive research tool on his website relicman.com that shows examples of authentic pieces and fakes.
 
This is very interesting to me. I had not heard the Bannerman and kirk story in a long time. I used to be much more up on things. I read a lot still, but not like I used too. Thank you to all of the great posters.
 
I'm not sure how many restrikes were made, probably no way to say for sure. I also remember reading that Kirk had a Hardee hat pin stamp that they used so much it cracked. That didnt stop them from using it so some of the restrikes are supposedly easy to spot, they have a crack above the eagle.

I found a link from Treasurenet that talks briefly about Stokes Kirk restrike here
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/290778-civil-war-eagle-breast-plate-initials.html

If in doubt you can always send pictures to Dave Taylor and/or Harry Ridgeway. They are both willing to give their expert analysis of Civil War items. Harry Ridgeway has a pretty extensive research tool on his website relicman.com that shows examples of authentic pieces and fakes.

I have been on Ridgeway's site and found it very helpful. Unfortunately he does not really delve into why the fakes he shows are fakes, or characteristics of the fakes that are out there. Probably because it is a research subject all by itself. I am trying to track down Howard Crouch's book on repro belt plates and buckles. Hard to find, but I think that there is where I need to go.
 
I'm not sure how many restrikes were made, probably no way to say for sure. I also remember reading that Kirk had a Hardee hat pin stamp that they used so much it cracked. That didnt stop them from using it so some of the restrikes are supposedly easy to spot, they have a crack above the eagle.

I found a link from Treasurenet that talks briefly about Stokes Kirk restrike here
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/290778-civil-war-eagle-breast-plate-initials.html

If in doubt you can always send pictures to Dave Taylor and/or Harry Ridgeway. They are both willing to give their expert analysis of Civil War items. Harry Ridgeway has a pretty extensive research tool on his website relicman.com that shows examples of authentic pieces and fakes.

I went to the treasurenet site and did the scratch test on the back of my belt plate as suggested. It is definitely filled with solder, not lead. Much harder than lead. I do have an original US box plate for comparison. Kirk and Bannerman must have used solder too?
 
Your go-to/gut reaction to all things ACW relic should always be "IT'S A FAKE!"

All ACW "relics" are guilty until proven innocent, and the burden of proof is on the owner.


Thanks for all the input so far. At this stage of the game, I agree that this plate is likley a repop, but an old one. Now I am intrigued by the Bannerman/Kirk aspect and need to look into that more. Not just for my own protection, but all of you out there who are new to this also. Live and LEARN. Love the input from all of you "old heads" out there. You guys are the wisdom for us novices.
 
Thanks for all the input so far. At this stage of the game, I agree that this plate is likley a repop, but an old one. Now I am intrigued by the Bannerman/Kirk aspect and need to look into that more. Not just for my own protection, but all of you out there who are new to this also. Live and LEARN. Love the input from all of you "old heads" out there. You guys are the wisdom for us novices.
I'm no expert, but there are some here. To be honest, I don't own as much as a spent minie-ball as far as ACW relics go. The main reason I don't is because the proliferation of fakes in the market is scary as hell. If would like to own an original musket or pistol one day if I come across one, but even those can be faked or patched together from period correct parts into something less than what they say it is. Enfields from India and Nepal get sold as "Confederate Rifles" every day, much to our disgust. The sellers claim ignorance and the buyers are always uninformed.
Anything that is claimed to be Confederate should be heavily scrutinized. I'm not saying that some aren't real, but having CS stamped on it is almost a sure sign of a fake, at least IMO.
 
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