Slavery, would it have died out in the US without the war?

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Freddy: "Sick individual"? What's sicker about killing someone with a sword as opposed to a gun?

Bloody Kansas was a mess and Brown certainly was part of it. But deeming him somehow unusual for that and ignoring everyone else that spilled blood is grossly unfair.
 

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unionblue

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Slavery was in no way going to die out on its own in the US.

From the Georgia Constitution of 1861: "The General Assembly shall have no power to pass laws for the emancipation of slaves." (This is the entire text of Article 2, Sec. VII, Paragraph 3.)

From the Alabama Constitution of 1861: "No slave in this State shall be emancipated by any act done to take effect in this State, or any other country." (This is the entire text of Article IV, Section 1 (on slavery).)

HOW was slavery to die out in this country with such laws on the books in most Southern states at the time?

What effort, before the Civil War, was being taken by Southern States or leaders that would give the impression that slavery was going anywhere but as a permanent feature in American social and political life?

NONE.

Unionblue
 
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Slavery was in no way going to die out on its own in the US.

From the Georgia Constitution of 1861: "The General Assembly shall have no power to pass laws for the emancipation of slaves." (This is the entire text of Article 2, Sec. VII, Paragraph 3.)

From the Alabama Constitution of 1861: "No slave in this State shall be emancipated by any act done to take effect in this State, or any other country." (This is the entire text of Article IV, Section 1 (on slavery).)

HOW was slavery to die out in this country with such laws on the books in most Southern states at the time?

What effort, before the Civil War, was being taken by Southern States or leaders that would give the impression that slavery was going anywhere but as a permanent feature in American social and political life?

NONE.

Unionblue
You forget that slavery was legal in the union Constitution, don't you? I think it was the 13th amendment that put a stop to it in the latter part of 1865 which was also voted on by the South.
 

unionblue

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You forget that slavery was legal in the union Constitution, don't you? I think it was the 13th amendment that put a stop to it in the latter part of 1865 which was also voted on by the South.
Vareb,

Actually, I don't.

But the simple fact remains, that without a Civil War lasting four terrible years, costing over 620,000 lives, slavery would still be a viable, thriving institution to this present day.

In other words, it would not have died out, it would not have been gotten rid of by peaceful means, nor would there had been any effort by law or by custom in the South to rid itself of the institution.

It took four years of bloody war to force it from this nation and then change the US Constitution to abolish slavery, which, as you have already observed, then voted on abolishing it.

Unionblue
 

larry_cockerham

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Vareb,

Actually, I don't.

But the simple fact remains, that without a Civil War lasting four terrible years, costing over 620,000 lives, slavery would still be a viable, thriving institution to this present day.

In other words, it would not have died out, it would not have been gotten rid of by peaceful means, nor would there had been any effort by law or by custom in the South to rid itself of the institution.

It took four years of bloody war to force it from this nation and then change the US Constitution to abolish slavery, which, as you have already observed, then voted on abolishing it.

Unionblue
My noble friend, I would like to respectively disagree. Please see my recent posts in the Mason Dixon forum. Slavery was dying, albeit a far too slow death. It took time for these new 'immigrants' to be merged with the existing society. The war, yes, accelerated a much too slow process, but it was a process already in motion, such as it was.
 

unionblue

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My noble friend, I would like to respectively disagree. Please see my recent posts in the Mason Dixon forum. Slavery was dying, albeit a far too slow death. It took time for these new 'immigrants' to be merged with the existing society. The war, yes, accelerated a much too slow process, but it was a process already in motion, such as it was.
Larry,

No, it was not, nor was there ANY evidence to point to that it was.

The process was not only "much to slow" and not "already in motion" it was at a social and political standstill.

I would be happy to be proven wrong.

Unionblue
 

M E Wolf

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Dear UnionBlue;

I do understand what too slow is.

It is so slow it has to speed up to stop. :smile: :wink:

The Civil War was that 'speed up to stop.'

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted,
M. E. Wolf
 
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Vareb,

Actually, I don't.

But the simple fact remains, that without a Civil War lasting four terrible years, costing over 620,000 lives, slavery would still be a viable, thriving institution to this present day.

In other words, it would not have died out, it would not have been gotten rid of by peaceful means, nor would there had been any effort by law or by custom in the South to rid itself of the institution.

It took four years of bloody war to force it from this nation and then change the US Constitution to abolish slavery, which, as you have already observed, then voted on abolishing it.

Unionblue
And what book leads you to this conclusion?
 

johan_steele

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And what book leads you to this conclusion?
From the Georgia Constitution of 1861: "The General Assembly shall have no power to pass laws for the emancipation of slaves." (This is the entire text of Article 2, Sec. VII, Paragraph 3.)

From the Alabama Constitution of 1861: "No slave in this State shall be emancipated by any act done to take effect in this State, or any other country." (This is the entire text of Article IV, Section 1 (on slavery).)
 
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From the Georgia Constitution of 1861: "The General Assembly shall have no power to pass laws for the emancipation of slaves." (This is the entire text of Article 2, Sec. VII, Paragraph 3.)

From the Alabama Constitution of 1861: "No slave in this State shall be emancipated by any act done to take effect in this State, or any other country." (This is the entire text of Article IV, Section 1 (on slavery).)
States have been known to establish new constitutions on occasion.
 
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John Brown was a terrorist of the worst kind. He planned, solicited money, was supported by a group of yankees called The Secret Six. There is a book by that name penned by Otto Scott that does an excellent job in his writing if anyone would be interested.
After interviewing John Brown before the start of his trial, Gov. Henry Wise of Virginia said, "He [Brown] is a man of clear head, courage, fortitude, and simple ingenuousness."

During a discussion about Brown after the rebellion ended, Wise, now a former Confederate general as well as former governor of Virginia said, "John Brown was a great man, sir. John Brown was a great man."
 

trice

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States have been known to establish new constitutions on occasion.
They certainly have. The two examples you were given appear to establish that the people living in those states in 1861 felt strongly that slavery should continue. Isn't that so?

Tim
 
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They certainly have. The two examples you were given appear to establish that the people living in those states in 1861 felt strongly that slavery should continue. Isn't that so?

Tim
The discussion recently has been about whether the South would still have slavery here in 2008.
 

trice

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The discussion recently has been about whether the South would still have slavery here in 2008.
I think you should review the thread. Some people think it would have continued; some people think it would have ended. Do you have some great difficulty with admitting that the two states cited as changing their constitutions in 1861 wanted slavery to continue, effectively, forever?

Tim
 
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Slavery, would it have died out in the US without war?

There is a socio-political aspect to the question. Before and during the War, the south seemed incapable of envisioning Any viable and safe way to emancipate their slaves. Significant is the fact, that transplanting the slaves out of the country, at Federal expense, was rarely, if ever, seriously considered practicable.
Could the slave-owning ruling minority, free their slaves onto the citizens of southern society, without a voter back-lash, threatening their (the slave-owning oligarchy) power to govern the south?
Long after the economic justification for slavery withered and died, the fear of what centuries of slavery had wrought in the hearts of those slaves, would still be a deciding factor in all southerners, slave owning or not, concerning emancipation.
 

trice

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There is a socio-political aspect to the question. Before and during the War, the south seemed incapable of envisioning Any viable and safe way to emancipate their slaves. Significant is the fact, that transplanting the slaves out of the country, at Federal expense, was rarely, if ever, seriously considered practicable.
Could the slave-owning ruling minority, free their slaves onto the citizens of southern society, without a voter back-lash, threatening their (the slave-owning oligarchy) power to govern the south?
Long after the economic justification for slavery withered and died, the fear of what centuries of slavery had wrought in the hearts of those slaves, would still be a deciding factor in all southerners, slave owning or not, concerning emancipation.
This was a major concern in some Northern states that did free their slaves. In particular, they were very concerned that slaveowners would dump their slaves on the government by freeing them, making "free" the small children, the sick, the elderly, and the crippled so that they would become wards of the state. This is certainly true of NJ, PA, and NY.

I understand the practical concern involved. It would have been more alrming to people in states where slaves formed a very large portion of the population. But such problems can be faced and resolved.

Tim
 

unionblue

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And what book leads you to this conclusion?
Vareb,

I have over 200 books on the Civil War.

But the number is not important. It was the history contained within them.

The most compelling history I learned about the Civil War came from source documents from the period.

It was what I learned from them that led me to this conclusion.

Unionblue
 
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Vareb,

I have over 200 books on the Civil War.
So what is your point?

But the number is not important. It was the history contained within them.
So what is your point?

The most compelling history I learned about the Civil War came from source documents from the period.
Good.

It was what I learned from them that led me to this conclusion.
But you can't recommend a book? Pitiful!!

Unionblue[/quote]
 

johan_steele

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So what is your point? You asked how many books he answered.




But you can't recommend a book? Pitiful!! What is pitiful is that you have been unable to garner a single title from Unionblues posts, there are ample tieles provided.

Unionblue
[/QUOTE]

VAreb, you've been given titles, on this thread and others... and then have studiously ignored them.
 
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VAreb, you've been given titles, on this thread and others... and then have studiously ignored them.[/quote]

You sir, are mistaken. Go back and read some of my post because your statement is incorrect.
 



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