Skirmish at Vienna

Bobbie

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Pomerania, Poland
I've got a question about this action.

Brig. Gen. Robert C. Schenck in his report (OR 2, p.127) wrote:
"From the same reliable source ["a perfectly reliable Union man, residing in Vienna, who was there during the attack"] I ascertain that the whole force attacking us was at least 2000 (...). The enemy had cavalry, numbering, it is believed, not less than 200, and in addition to those, was a body of 150 armed picked negroes, who were posted nearest us, in a grain field on our left flank, but not observed by us, as they lay flat in the grain and did not fire a gun".

My question is: what a group of "armed picked negroes" could be there, under the command of Col. Maxcy Gregg? Or the "reliable source" of Schenck was not so reliable?
Gregg didn't mention any such men in his report of the skirmish.
 
An Embellishing General!

I've got a question about this action.

Brig. Gen. Robert C. Schenck in his report (OR 2, p.127) wrote:
"From the same reliable source ["a perfectly reliable Union man, residing in Vienna, who was there during the attack"] I ascertain that the whole force attacking us was at least 2000 (...). The enemy had cavalry, numbering, it is believed, not less than 200, and in addition to those, was a body of 150 armed picked Negroes, who were posted nearest us, in a grain field on our left flank, but not observed by us, as they lay flat in the grain and did not fire a gun".










My question is: what a group of "armed picked negroes" could be there, under the command of Col. Maxcy Gregg? Or the "reliable source" of Schenck was not so reliable?
Gregg didn't mention any such men in his report of the skirmish.


I think Gen. Schenck is not reliable. I have found that in many Official Reports numbers of men enage in combat are almost always incorrect if you lose, then the other side always had more men then you.

Skrimish at Vienna, Va. was early in the war so I doubt that any (armed negros as Gen. Schenck put it) there.

I think Gen, Schenck was just embellishing just a little.
 
5fish,

I agree with you that Gen. Schenck embroidered his report a bit.

Numbers of Confederate troops:

Gen Schenck report-
Infantry- 800 SC troops and additional 600-1000 who arrived before attack;
Cavalry- not less than 200;
3 guns;
150 armed negroes;

Gen. Gregg report-
Infantry- 575;
Cavalry- about 140;
2 guns with 34 men;

I'm just wondering why he would invent details quite hard to credit, like those black troops?
 
That early in the war, armed negroes would have been as alarming in the north as it was in the south. My guess is propaganda.

ole
 
Ole,

you mean that Gen. Schenck added those informations about coloured troops to his report on purpose?
Like a journalist who wrote an article in Harper's Weekly on Black Confederates? (May 10, 1862):

"THE correspondent of the New York Herald, in one of its late numbers, reports that the rebels had a regiment of mounted negroes, armed with sabres, at Manassas, and that some five hundred Union prisoners taken at Bull Run were escorted to their filthy prison by a regiment of black men".

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/civil-war/1862/may/black-confederate-soldiers.htm

The journalist asked rhetorically: "Will some one now say why, if slaves are to be armed at all, they should be armed against our friends instead of our enemies?". Did Gen. Schenck have the same intention?
 
Did Gen. Schenck have the same intention?
Interesting question so, of course, I don't know.

There is a similarity between Schenck's observation and the journalist's: they both saw things that no one else wrote about. Were either deliberately lying to make a situation where there wasn't one? Possibly. Schenck had already added a few more troops than Gregg reported present.

The only I can say in Schenck's favor is that his counterpart was a journalist -- not one of them could report an event without inventing details to make a more exciting story.

ole
 
Thanks for your suggestions :smile:

I think I'll stick by the version that Robert Schenck embellished his report just to weaken the impression of his defeat. By describing such an unexpected opponent he made the retreat of his forces from Vienna look less disgraceful.
 
Add somehting:

We don't know all the cultural or social norms of the 1860's. I do believe Schenck did embellish his report but the journalist I think was trying to create a story for us to think about it. Mounted Armed slaves was a scary thought by the 1860's America to the people in the north and south. I think the journalist wanted to put a scare into the people back home. I think he didn't have a story and made one up. Maybe Schenck reliable source wanted to put a scare into him as well.

Just a thought,
 
Maybe Schenck reliable source wanted to put a scare into him as well.
Haven't thought about it in this way. It could be the case. The general desribed his informant (a Virginian I guess) as "a perfectly reliable Union man"- but he could have been mistaken...

As regards the Harper's Weekly article, I presume it's aim was not really to frighten its readers. It seems more likely to me that the journalist wanted to persuade the US government to arm slaves: hence the rhetorical question I quoted yesterday.

I contemplated if Schenck could have had a similar aim, but I haven't found any arguments in favour. Haven't found any proof of his presupposed support for creating Black regiments.
 
Schenck!

I contemplated if Schenck could have had a similar aim, but I haven't found any arguments in favour. Haven't found any proof of his presupposed support for creating Black regiments.

Schenck was an early supporter of Lincoln's. Did you check out his voting record in congress for he was a congressman twice.

Think he did belong to the !st Ohio regiment maybe another soldier wrote about the Vienna skirmish.

I have not figure out the "Vienna affair" yet.

I suppose if black slaves had truly fired at him. The news of the day would have put the story on the front page. Just a thought.
 
Dear List Members,

There were many skirmishes/actions around Vienna, as it was a railroad station/depot there.

Here is an example of some 'actions' in Vienna-
HEADQUARTERS CAVALRY BRIGADE,
Near Fort Buffalo, Va., October 19, 1864.
Lieut. Col. J. H. TAYLOR,
Chief of Staff and Assistant Adjutant-General:
COLONEL: I have the honor to inform you that as next senior officer to Col. H. M. Lazelle the command of the force of cavalry here has, on the receipt of his resignation, devolved upon me. The force of 400 men, mentioned in the report of October 17, left Annandale the same evening without making any demonstration at that point One man who was on picket-post was taken prisoner while attempting to escape. About 2 a.m. on the morning of October 18 a force of Mosby's men, estimated at seventy-five, entered Falls Church village, halted at the church (brigade hospital), and, after breaking open the barn of Mr. Sines, a citizen who lives opposite, and taking therefrom five valuable horses, passed up the Alexandria and Lewinsville pike toward Vienna. The post at the junction of the Lewinsville road with the pike, consisting of one corporal and three men of the Sixteenth New York Cavalry, was captured, with one horse. A negro named Frank Brooks, belonging to the citizens home guard of the village, was shot dead while attempting to assist the picket in making a defense. Mr. J. B. Reed, a citizen and a member of the same guard, with one of his negro employes, were taken prisoners at the same time. Mr. Reed was afterward brutally murdered by the party who captured him in a dense pine wood near Hunter's Mill, and his body has been found and brought into his house. An attempt to kill the negro taken with Mr. Reed was also made, and the rebels, supposing him dead, left him in the woods. He escaped afterward, however, and has but a slight wound in the head, with the loss of an ear, blown off by a pistol shot. There is no doubt concerning the murder of Mr. Reed, as the surgeon who <ar91_415> has made an examination of the body states that the skull at the base of the brain is blown to atoms, and the flesh about the wound is filled with powder, as if the pistol had been placed close to the head. The negro who escaped brings information that at or near Vienna the force which visited Falls Church was joined by a reserve party of 100 or more men. The officer commanding at Annandale states that the party which visited him numbered 600 men. Everything has been quiet here since the attack.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
JOHN BIRDSALL,
Major Thirteenth New York Volunteer Cavalry.
-----
Major-General McCLELLAN.
It had been officially reported to me from Washington that the enemy in strong force was moving through Vienna in the direction of the Chain Bridge, and had a large force in Vienna. This report, in connection with the dispatch of the General-in-Chief on the 28th, before noted, induced <ar12_99> me to direct Franklin to halt his command near Annandale until it Could be determined by reconnaissances to Vienna and toward Manassas whether these reports were true. General Cox was ordered to send his small cavalry force from Upton's hill toward Vienna and Dranesville in one direction and toward Fairfax Court-House in the other and Franklin to push his two squadrons as far toward Manassas as possible, in order to ascertain the true position of the enemy. With the enemy in three at Vienna and toward Lewinsville it would have been very injudicious to have pushed Franklin's small force beyond Annandale. It must be remembered that at that time we were cut off from direct communication with General Pope; that the enemy was, by the last accounts, at Manassas in strong force, and that Franklin had only from 10,000 to 11,000 men, with an entirely insufficient force of cavalry and artillery.
In order to represent this condition of affairs in its proper light to the General-in Chief, and to obtain definite instructions from him, I telegraphed as follows:
CAMP NEAR ALEXANDRIA,
August 29, 1862--12 m.
--------------
CIRCULAR.] HEADQUARTERS ARMY OF VIRGINIA,
Fairfax Court-House, September 2, 1862.
The following movement of troops will be made at once, in accordance with the instructions from the War Department, viz:
1. Banks' corps will march by the Braddock road and Annandale, and take post at or near Fort Worth.
2. The corps of Franklin and Hooker will pursue the Little River pike toward Alexandria.
3. Heintzelman's corps the Braddock road toward Fort Lyon.
4. McDowell's corps the road by Falls Church, Little River, and Columbia pikes toward Forts Craig and Tillinghast. The corps of Porter, Sumner, and Sigel via Vienna toward the Chain Bridge. These three latter corps will keep well closed up and within easy supporting distance of each other.
The cavalry under General Buford will follow and cover the march of the three corps of Porter, Sumner, and Sigel, and Bayard the troops marching on the road south of it. Sumner will bring up the rear on the route he is ordered to pursue. Hooker will cover the rear on the Little River pike, and Banks the rear on the Braddock road. General Banks will call in the forces from Sangster's and Fairfax Stations, and will break up the depot at the latter place, shipping all stores by rail to Alexandria. The wagon trains, except such as are in immediate use by the corps, will pursue the Little River pike to Alexandria. [end of excerpt] The commanders of these various army corps will send forward, several <ar16_87> hours in advance, staff officers to notify General McClellan of their approach to the points which they are to occupy.
By command of Major-General Pope:
GEO. D. RUGGLES,
Colonel and Chief of Staff.
-----

The Alexandria, Loudon & Hampshire Railroad went through Vienna, Virginia so it was of military importance as it ran the "Washington & Old Dominion RR" tracks out towards Fairfax --which would be close to Fairfax Court House and Chantilly. It also was a route that moved from Alexandra, through Arlington (then known as Alexandria County), along the McLean area of Virginia and out to Dulles Airport/Chantilly and Loudon into the Blue Ridge.

Manassas Gap Railroad was partly finished-the Manassas area was running, with Warrenton Junction and a new grade was laid from Alexandria through Annandale, Virginia heading west towards Manassas; to which the "Unfinished Railroad" is it's pathway.

Alexandria & Orange Railroad went on the Old Southern Railroad towards what is was Richmond, Fredericksburg &Potomac RR (now CSX) these tracks went to Edsall Station, Springfield Station -- so, it went towards Richmond.

But -- the old W&OD RR tracks went through Vienna and the railroads that W&OD RR was relative to.

1861
June 1--Arlington Mills, skirmish at.
June 1--Fairfax Court House, skirmish at.
June 17--Vienna, action near.
July 17--Fairfax Court House, skirmish at.
Aug. 18--Pohick Church, skirmish at.
Aug. 27-28--Ball's Cross-Roads, skirmish at.
Aug. 28-30--Bailey's Corners, skirmishes near.
Aug. 31--Munson's Hill, skirmish at.
Sept. 10-11--Lewinsville, action and skirmish at.
Sept. 18--Munson's Hill, affair at.
Sept. 25--Lewinsville, skirmish at.
Sept. 28--Vanderburgh's House, affair at.
Oct. 2-3--Springfield Station, skirmishes at.
Oct. 15--Little River Turnpike, skirmish on
Nov. 16--Doolan's Farm, capture of Union foraging party at.
Nov. 18-27--Fairfax Court House, skirmishes near.
Nov. 26--Vienna, skirmish near.
Dec. 2--Annandale, skirmish at.
Dec. 4--Burke Station, skirmish at.
1862
Jan. 9--Pohick Run, skirmish at.
March 5--Pohick Church, skirmish near.
March 9--Sangster Station, skirmish at.
May 30--Fair Oaks, skirmish.
June 21--Fair Oaks Station, skirmish near.
Aug. 26--Manassas Junction, skirmish at.
Aug. 26--Manassas Station, capture of.
Sept. 1--Chantilly, battle of.
Sept. 1--Ox Hill, battle of.
Sept. 2--Fairfax Court House, skirmish near.
Sept. 2--Falls Church, skirmish near
Sept. 3-4--Falls Church, skirmishes at.
Nov. 5-6--Manassas Gap, skirmish
Dec. 27--Dumfries, action at.
Dec. 27-28--Fairfax Court House, skirmishes.
Dec. 27-29--Chantilly, skirmishes near.
Dec. 29--Frying Pan, skirmishes near.
1863
Jan. 9--Fairfax Court House, skirmish.
Jan. 26-27--Fairfax Court House and Middleburg, skirmishes near and at
Feb. 10--Chantilly, skirmish at.
Feb. 14--Union Mills, affair near.
Feb. 25, 26--Chantilly, skirmishes at.
March 9--Fairfax Court House, affair at.
March 15, 29--Dumfries, affairs near.
March 17--Herndon Station, affair at.
March 22--Occoquan, affairs near.
March 23--Chantilly, skirmish near.
May 17--Dumfries, skirmish near.
June 4--Frying Pan, skirmish at.
June 4--Lawyers' Road, near Fairfax Court House, skirmish on the.
June 27--Fairfax Court House, skirmish near.
June 28-29--Little River Turnpike, affair on the.
July 21-22--Manassas Gap, skirmishes at.
July 23--Wapping Heights, Manassas Gap, action at.
Aug. 7--Burke's Station, affair at.
Aug. 16--Falls Church, skirmish at.
Oct. 1, 3--Lewinsville, skirmishes at.
Oct. 14--Centreville, skirmish near.
Oct. 15--Manassas, skirmish at.
Oct. 15--McLean's Ford, Bull Run, skirmish at.
Oct. 15--Oak Hill, skirmish at.
Oct. 17--Chantilly, affair at Stuart's, near.
Oct. 17--Frying Pan Church, near Pohick Church, skirmish at.
Oct. 17-18--Groveton, skirmishes at.
Oct. 17--Manassas Junction, skirmish at.
Oct. 18, 22--Annandale, affairs near.
Nov. 14--Tyson's Cross-Roads, skirmish at.
Nov. 25--Sangster's Station, affair near.
Nov. 27--Robertson's Tavern, or Locust Grove, skirmishes at.
Dec. 9--Lewinsville, affairs at and near.
Dec. 15-17--Sangster's Station, skirmishes at
Dec. 21--Hunter's Mill, affair near.
1864
Jan. 6, 18--Flint Hill, affairs at.
March 16--Annandale, affair near.
April 23--Hunter's Mills, affair near.
May 21--Guiney's Station.
May 27--Little River.
June 9--Loudoun County, affair in.
June 23-24--Falls Church and Centreville, skirmishes near.
June 24--Hare's Hill, action at.
June 24--Saint Mary's Church, engagement at.
Aug. 8, Nov. 26--Fairfax Station, skirmishes at.
Aug. 24--Annandale, skirmish at.
Nov. 11--Manassas Junction, skirmish at.
1865
March 25--Fort Stedman, assault on.
April 10--Arundel's Farm, skirmish at.
April 10--Burke's Station and Arundel's Farm, skirmishes near.

[I have narrowed it down to be focused on NE Virginia]

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf


Just some thoughts.
 
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