Restricted Six Ballot Referendums to Remove Confederate Monuments in Virginia

PapaReb

First Sergeant
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Location
Arkansas CSA occupied
If I may butt in here...HR7608 has passed the House and been sent to the Senate. The Senate has referred it to the Committee on Appropriations.

In my opinion in the current Senate I don't think it would pass.
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
You are better placed than I to know the answer. It would seem to me that as it's in an appropriations bill the odds are very short that it will pass. Also, given the current political climate in the USA, I'd be surprised if enough politicians stood up to object to one section of that bill that targets only Confederate commemorative works to ensure that it doesn't pass and become law.

Sorry, but I have no special powers or political contacts that would inform me of the tactics of seeing this pill pass or defeated.

Although I have seen bills defeated over last-minute attachments to same.

Guess we'll find out.
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
I look forward to seeing what you find. Unfortunately, if it is just something that can be construed as "inferred" without being almost blatantly stated as fact, I have a hard time being convinced that it is "hard" evidence. However, knowing that you seem to be a man of integrity I will await seeing the articles that you refer to before drawing any kind of preconceived conclusion.

@PapaReb ,

Sorry it's taking me so long to reply to your above.

Here are two online articles I think might be an answer to your above post.

Confederate Statues Were Never Really About Preserving History.

Why Confederate Monuments Should Be Removed.

@Georgia ,

Thought you might like to read the above two articles.

Unionblue
 

PapaReb

First Sergeant
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Location
Arkansas CSA occupied
@PapaReb ,

Sorry it's taking me so long to reply to your above.

Here are two online articles I think might be an answer to your above post.

Confederate Statues Were Never Really About Preserving History.

Why Confederate Monuments Should Be Removed.

@Georgia ,

Thought you might like to read the above two articles.

Unionblue
Thank you for posting the articles @unionblue. After reading them a couple of times I must say that they do not offer the "hard evidence" that was discussed, they simply offer the authors opinions and their view points of the Confederate monuments. While I can fully believe that some people involved in the construction and placing of the statues and monuments held white supremisist beliefs, I do not accept the premise that this was the primary reason for them. I still firmly believe that the PRIMARY motive behind those many individual persons who contributed donations toward the purchase and erection of the majority of these memorials did so out of a desire to remember, mourn and honor those who served and perished during the War. Even though the erection of the monuments seem to coincide with the growing discontent of the negro population the time frame also coincides with the rapid loss of living Confederate veterans.

I understand your view that as a defeated nation, the Confederacy has no right to be memorialized on federal property (understanding does not mean complete agreement) however, are we, the communities of the Southern States, to be denied the right of our heritage and to have memorials to that heritage placed and sustained as long as the majority of a community are in favor of them?

I would hope that we could come to a place where true compromise can come to pass. Complete removal and/or destruction is not compromise.
 

Viper21

Brigadier General
Moderator
Silver Patron
Joined
Jul 4, 2016
Location
Rockbridge County, Virginia
@PapaReb ,

Sorry it's taking me so long to reply to your above.

Here are two online articles I think might be an answer to your above post.

Confederate Statues Were Never Really About Preserving History.

Why Confederate Monuments Should Be Removed.

@Georgia ,

Thought you might like to read the above two articles.

Unionblue
Opinion pieces from very biased sources.

I'll not be taking anything from the SPLC serious, ever. Nothing more than conjecture, & agenda driven opinion.

I read the first article (from 538). They ignore any, & every possibility for erection of these monuments, except stuff that fits their racism narrative. I think Booker T. Washington summed up folks like this, & the SPLC, many years ago:

“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”

Most of these monuments took years to raise the funds. It's no surprise that most were built after the turn of the century. Took multiple generations for the South to recover financially.

As far as the court house monuments... In many communities, that's were folks enlisted. That's where many departed their families, & communities. Seems fitting to put a monument at the last place you saw them. Coming full circle so to speak.
 

Pete Longstreet

2nd Lieutenant
Forum Host
Silver Patron
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Location
Hartford, CT
But what if the past being presented never was?
This can be pondered in many different ways... but one thing is for certain.... when the human race is involved, there will be uncertainty. Along with corruption, violence, abuse of power, war, and the occasional tyrant/dictator. It just depends on how well the good combats the evil... if you erased the past of the United States... would we actually be in a better position? Or would we just be fighting and killing over something else...
 

Viper21

Brigadier General
Moderator
Silver Patron
Joined
Jul 4, 2016
Location
Rockbridge County, Virginia
This can be pondered in many different ways... but one thing is for certain.... when the human race is involved, there will be uncertainty. Along with corruption, violence, abuse of power, war, and the occasional tyrant/dictator. It just depends on how well the good combats the evil... if you erased the past of the United States... would we actually be in a better position? Or would we just be fighting and killing over something else...
Couldn't agree more. Evil exists. Always has, always will.

I'll be patiently waiting to see how removing monuments, & "interpreting" all symbols of the Confederate Soldier, improves anyone's modern life. I'll especially be excited to see how a city like Richmond benefits from all the removals this year. I bet their unemployment, poverty, crime, & violence will all but disappear as a result....... :unsure:
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
This can be pondered in many different ways... but one thing is for certain.... when the human race is involved, there will be uncertainty. Along with corruption, violence, abuse of power, war, and the occasional tyrant/dictator. It just depends on how well the good combats the evil... if you erased the past of the United States... would we actually be in a better position? Or would we just be fighting and killing over something else...

The United States past can be pondered, debated, argued for or against, showing all the wrongs and right of this nation. It cannot be erased, not without the willing participation of EVERY citizen.

Removing or relocating statues and monuments does not in any way erase our nation's history. If anything, it just might bring about a more honest reckoning of that history, instead of a fantasy espoused right after the Civil War and continued up into our present.

The denial of history, it's attempt at actual erasure, has been the myth, the fantasy of the Lost Cause and the denial of what the war was all about. It's time for this fairy tale to be tossed upon the same ash heap of history the Confederacy was so that actual history may be saved and taught.

Unionblue
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
@PapaReb ,

I've seen several articles and websites that list when the majority of these monuments were erected and under what social climate they were placed.

I will endeavor to find them again and post them on this thread for all to see.

But I assure you, the timing of the placement and their location speak to more than just honoring history or Confederate dead.

Until that time.

Unionblue
It should be noted Union monuments were being erected through the same time periods and same social climates.....so unless you think they have some ulterior unspoken motive as well.....it would seem that dog don't hunt..........

Perhaps the rise of the northern monuments at the turn of the century is connected to the rise of the 2nd or largely northern KKK? Personally I think its more likely as in my lifetime, decades later as the WW2 generation started to pass away, there was moves to remember and commemorate the "greatest generation". Plus I imagine there was to some extent a desire whenever one side erected one, for the other to not want to be outdone, and match the efforts of the other.
 
Last edited:

Pete Longstreet

2nd Lieutenant
Forum Host
Silver Patron
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Location
Hartford, CT
The United States past can be pondered, debated, argued for or against, showing all the wrongs and right of this nation. It cannot be erased, not without the willing participation of EVERY citizen.

Removing or relocating statues and monuments does not in any way erase our nation's history. If anything, it just might bring about a more honest reckoning of that history, instead of a fantasy espoused right after the Civil War and continued up into our present.

The denial of history, it's attempt at actual erasure, has been the myth, the fantasy of the Lost Cause and the denial of what the war was all about. It's time for this fairy tale to be tossed upon the same ash heap of history the Confederacy was so that actual history may be saved and taught.

Unionblue
Even with the willingness of every citizen, it cannot be erased. It can be buried, hidden, and taught to be forgot about... but not undone. Kind of like the saying "can't unscramble the eggs". The Civil War is part of our moral fiber... it's an event in history that helped mold this Country, whether you agree with where we ended up or not.

I agree with you on the denial of history. If more emphasis was put on educating people about the Civil War, it may bring some calmness when discussed. I feel the white southerner of the 1800's is vilified today. Maybe educating would bring some clarity to this topic as well.

Slavery aside, because it was sin... but is it fair to sit here today and pass judgment on those people for what they did over 150 years ago... you have to wonder in another 150 what people will think of us who lived through the year of 2020... they may be very disappointed in us.
 
Last edited:

Georgia

Sergeant
@PapaReb ,

Sorry it's taking me so long to reply to your above.

Here are two online articles I think might be an answer to your above post.

Confederate Statues Were Never Really About Preserving History.

Why Confederate Monuments Should Be Removed.

@Georgia ,

Thought you might like to read the above two articles.

Unionblue
Just seeing this post. Both articles were very well written and brought up many clear points worth reviewing.
When you don’t know the backstory and education is necessary. For example, my state’s flag - for as long as I remembered- had a modified version of a Confederate flag on it. This flag was changed in 1956 just as segregation and Civil Rights began to be known. It was created under the disguise of history but was a daily reminder to many about the oppression their families had faced.

If the monuments were placed in locations specifically chosen and at specific times to continue to put people “in their place”- then, they have breached any historical or memorial usage. And, to use the guise of the passing of soldiers for continuing a segregationist viewpoint is abhorrent.

How to determine the exact thoughts behind every memorial may be an impossible feat. But, for those that stay in place, more must be done to give better instructions concerning the why, how, etc. that the piece arrived at that very spot.
But, items like the timing of the change of the Georgia flag and flying the flag on top of the SC statehouse - well, there can be no other reasonings other than a hatred which has no place in our country.
 

Viper21

Brigadier General
Moderator
Silver Patron
Joined
Jul 4, 2016
Location
Rockbridge County, Virginia
Just seeing this post. Both articles were very well written and brought up many clear points worth reviewing.
When you don’t know the backstory and education is necessary. For example, my state’s flag - for as long as I remembered- had a modified version of a Confederate flag on it. This flag was changed in 1956 just as segregation and Civil Rights began to be known. It was created under the disguise of history but was a daily reminder to many about the oppression their families had faced.

If the monuments were placed in locations specifically chosen and at specific times to continue to put people “in their place”- then, they have breached any historical or memorial usage. And, to use the guise of the passing of soldiers for continuing a segregationist viewpoint is abhorrent.

How to determine the exact thoughts behind every memorial may be an impossible feat. But, for those that stay in place, more must be done to give better instructions concerning the why, how, etc. that the piece arrived at that very spot.
But, items like the timing of the change of the Georgia flag and flying the flag on top of the SC statehouse - well, there can be no other reasonings other than a hatred which has no place in our country.
Rather than take obvious opinion pieces for fact, why not take the folks who put these monuments up at their own words. I would recommend this thread: https://civilwartalk.com/threads/in...d-dedication-of-confederate-memorials.168979/
 

Georgia

Sergeant
Rather than take obvious opinion pieces for fact, why not take the folks who put these monuments up at their own words. I would recommend this thread: https://civilwartalk.com/threads/in...d-dedication-of-confederate-memorials.168979/
Again, another good article. And, yes, this is the rub. Those which have pure intentions and are memorializing the losses vs. though put up to make a “keep your place” statement.
1) can they be weeded out?
2) will anyone who is opposing the monuments accept that for many these are memorial pieces.
3) then, others will say do we memorialize a war fought for what many will believe as only being fought for the continuation of enslavement.
It’s a never ending barrage of pros and cons and I fear by not discussing everyone’s concerns and coming together on an answer that both sides will be losing their fights on one level or another.

Are your beliefs the memorials should remain with added information?
 

PapaReb

First Sergeant
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Location
Arkansas CSA occupied
If the monuments were placed in locations specifically chosen and at specific times to continue to put people “in their place”- then, they have breached any historical or memorial usage. And, to use the guise of the passing of soldiers for continuing a segregationist viewpoint is abhorrent.
So far this is just supposition with no tangible proof being offered. There is substantially more evidence of the motives behind the monuments being placed by the posts of @Andersonh1 than has been presented by those who claim an ulterior motive to "put people in their place".

Until the "hard evidence" can be presented I will continue to believe that the majority of these memorials stand to remember and mourn those who fought and died in the War. If they continue to be removed without the "consent of the governed" it will do nothing but widen the divide that we are experiencing between the different segments of our society and country.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
Just seeing this post. Both articles were very well written and brought up many clear points worth reviewing.
When you don’t know the backstory and education is necessary. For example, my state’s flag - for as long as I remembered- had a modified version of a Confederate flag on it. This flag was changed in 1956 just as segregation and Civil Rights began to be known. It was created under the disguise of history but was a daily reminder to many about the oppression their families had faced.

If the monuments were placed in locations specifically chosen and at specific times to continue to put people “in their place”- then, they have breached any historical or memorial usage. And, to use the guise of the passing of soldiers for continuing a segregationist viewpoint is abhorrent.

How to determine the exact thoughts behind every memorial may be an impossible feat. But, for those that stay in place, more must be done to give better instructions concerning the why, how, etc. that the piece arrived at that very spot.
But, items like the timing of the change of the Georgia flag and flying the flag on top of the SC statehouse - well, there can be no other reasonings other than a hatred which has no place in our country.
Actually its not hard to discern the exact thoughts, most have inscriptions.
 

Georgia

Sergeant
Gentlemen,
I’m afraid my position is being misinterpreted and perhaps lost. Not sure how much it really matters as I have no active ways to aid the situation and all my suggestions made here have been pushed aside.

But, my original position has not changed. I’m a proponent for retaining history. And, if “history” can stay in place I’d like there to be added information at these locations which will help suppress the mistruths swirling about the war.
While I’d like to be able to deliberate more,I’m not able to at this time. I’m trying to contact the powers that be to get some help in handling an appeal being made by a contractor who is wishing to place a sand mine in the middle of the historic district on a barrier island that means the world to me. We came together as a group of binyahs and comeyahs- those who are natives on the island and those who have come later. A combination of the Gullah people and the ones who came to love the island and we worked together to retain the culture and history at this location. But, culture and history is back in jeopardy and time is critical so I must take leave of the more discussion minded posts for a while.

All I can offer is I have learned that unless you are in the middle if a situation what is said between others won’t make the difference as much as you may wish. Start a petition, volunteer your time and get stuck in to preserving or removal- however your heart guides you. And, make sure you understand all the zoning codes and other legal areas as ultimately emotions - for or against- won’t make the difference I fear. If it’s like what we are dealing with, it’s all going to come down to who can afford litigation, who knows the black doors in and out of zoning code and who is part of a good old boy network.

Y’all all take care and have a happy thanksgiving!
 
Last edited:

Georgia

Sergeant
Actually its not hard to discern the exact thoughts, most have inscriptions.
What is written verses what is meant are not always the same things.
Have you not ever heard a woman say something, “doesn’t matter?” We say it doesn’t matter but it means you best believe it matters and you better be actively willing to do something about it.
 
Top