Restricted Six Ballot Referendums to Remove Confederate Monuments in Virginia

Viper21

Brigadier General
Moderator
Silver Patron
Joined
Jul 4, 2016
Location
Rockbridge County, Virginia
All six failed. The closest tally was 55% - 44% AGAINST Removal, in Charles City. The largest was over 80% against removal.

As I've cynically stated before, this is why plenty of the urban areas wont put this issue to the voters. Voters are generally in favor of leaving Monuments alone.

 

jcaesar

Private
Joined
Aug 28, 2020
The outcome of the referendums show that actual public support of Virginia's historical monuments is far higher then what pollsters are showing. If the state was really split down the middle on the topic as the pre-election polls were showing then in more liberal localities where the referendum was held the yes vote should have won not been blown out of the water by 15-20%.

This gets to a big problem those who support retaining the nations historical monuments have that ordinary people are afraid to even say their preference in public because of how effective certain groups have been at using the internet to attack, shame, and at times even ruin the lives of people for having dissenting views.

In Charles City County African Americans outnumber whites 46% to 42% based on the result I would estimate that at least a third of African Americans in the County likely voted against the measure. Based on all the results I would say public support in the state for its historical monuments is actually above 60%

Polls are no good anymore because the level of fear pervading society today regarding people saying what they really believe. This is potentially a very powerful message going forward to politicians and the media which are guided by polls that the numbers in your hand are no good as people are not being fully honest with pollsters on what they really feel on the topic.
 
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Georgia

Sergeant
Has anyone noticed a difference in the perception of the monuments if they’re an obelisk or a memorial to lost veterans of the area versus a figure in uniform or someone on horseback?

I’m wondering if the general public are actually reading to see what the specific monument was reflecting or if it’s past the point of true recognition and all Civil War related monuments are seen as evil and must be removed at whatever costs?

I’m finding it difficult to understand how a monument specifically erected as a memorial for lives lost in an area could be considered offensive. If the thought process has jumped to ANYTHING dealing with the Civil War must go, then it would seem the issue of removal is going to become and even more difficult concept to discuss with those who hold the power to remove the monuments.

Has any group considered meeting and determining various options for these removed monuments prior to the issue coming up? Basically already have a general plan of attack ( which would need to be modified to municipalities/ states’ regulatory laws on the matter) but say, already have a general ongoing permit with signatures of those opposing the removal of historical monuments, read up and familiarize yourself with possible historic preservation regulations, each state’s existing legal stance on monuments and the history of each of the most notable pieces which will most likely be tapped for removal first? If the DAC or SCV or whomever was involved with raising the money for the monuments, then bring these groups to the table ( if they’re still viable) and multiple groups bond together to conserve resources ( research, time, finances, etc) and create a larger impact when a removal begins to be discussed.
Change.org and other online petition sites allow for the creation of an online petition which can be shared by the-enacting groups,forums, historically minded preservation groups, etc. - then, it can be shared on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. If the correct concept can be stated to explain why the history of these monuments is critical for education purposes and to honor the fallen veterans, maybe the general concept made by the public of the desire to keep them in place isn’t a Civil War negative glorification, but rather for historic purposes- well, then maybe the dialogue can begin to change and more of a thought process happen instead of a knee jerk response to take everything down ?
 

Viper21

Brigadier General
Moderator
Silver Patron
Joined
Jul 4, 2016
Location
Rockbridge County, Virginia
well, then maybe the dialogue can begin to change and more of a thought process happen instead of a knee jerk response to take everything down ?
There is quite simply, no dialogue to be had. The majority of people, do NOT want them removed. It has been proven time & time again, in various polls, & ballot referendums.

These removals by acts of lawlessness, & that of some Politicians, are intentionally done, against the wishes of the majority of folks. How do you have a dialogue with folks who refuse to act within the confines of the law..? How do you have dialogue with Politicians who don't care what their constituents want..?

Witnessing what we've seen in various communities this year, deeply upsets me, & I'm sure it upsets many folks. We now live in a Country engulfed in a highly politicized environment, where the rule of law is selectively enforced. The end game, isn't going to be pretty. :frown: :mad:
 

AshleyMel

Sergeant Major
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
Has any group considered meeting and determining various options for these removed monuments prior to the issue coming up? Basically already have a general plan of attack ( which would need to be modified to municipalities/ states’ regulatory laws on the matter) but say, already have a general ongoing permit with signatures of those opposing the removal of historical monuments, read up and familiarize yourself with possible historic preservation regulations, each state’s existing legal stance on monuments and the history of each of the most notable pieces which will most likely be tapped for removal first? If the DAC or SCV or whomever was involved with raising the money for the monuments, then bring these groups to the table ( if they’re still viable) and multiple groups bond together to conserve resources ( research, time, finances, etc) and create a larger impact when a removal begins
In the cases I have first hand knowledge/involvement with, there was just simply no discussion or dialogue to be had. (I'm in California). There was no opportunity, let alone any invitation to come to the table or reason together to find solutions. The situations are often instigated with hostility by the media and others so opportunities such as you mentioned are difficult to come to fruition. In so many of these instances, anything Confederate is not worthy of preserving. My UDC Chapter is trying to evaluate how we can move forward with even restoration and clean up of head stones in cemeteries that have been vandalized. We have been told we are evil and anything with our name on it should never again see the light of day (direct quote). In several cases these markers were personal property and have been stolen. In my short time as a member, the situation has progressed to where there are, sadly, no reasonable compromises. I pray one day it will be different.
 

Georgia

Sergeant
There is quite simply, no dialogue to be had. The majority of people, do NOT want them removed. It has been proven time & time again, in various polls, & ballot referendums.

These removals by acts of lawlessness, & that of some Politicians, are intentionally done, against the wishes of the majority of folks. How do you have a dialogue with folks who refuse to act within the confines of the law..? How do you have dialogue with Politicians who don't care what their constituents want..?

Witnessing what we've seen in various communities this year, deeply upsets me, & I'm sure it upsets many folks. We now live in a Country engulfed in a highly politicized environment, where the rule of law is selectively enforced. The end game, isn't going to be pretty. :frown: :mad:
I have to agree as I’ve recently experienced other inanimate objects being wrongly politicized, and have been scratching my head about it for months now.
Guess that’s why I’m asking the obvious questions to so many of you of why are people now deciding to raise these concerns about monuments which have been a part of our fields of vision for decades.
Is it from a low simmering anger which has now grown to a boil?
Is it an active action against not knowing what else to do when faced with the loss of minority life at the hands of those who are to be the basis of protection for our citizens?
Is it a grasp to show concern for our black fellow citizens when there’s nothing else we could do based on the current attitudes of those in office?
Is it a normal realization like the 2001 and 2020 removal of images on state flags to better reflect the beliefs of beginning a dialogue of equality?
Is it the lack of knowledge of our country’s history by the younger members of our country? ( I’m still flummoxed by the pulling down of Grant’s statue by those opposing the past enslaving practices of our country.) And, it’s the personal realization that I, a resident of Georgia, where so much of the Civil War was fought in my literal backyard, after all the years of education I received-including AP History classes in high school and continuing History Classes in my undergraduate days - I never was taught anything about the Civil War. Nothing, nota, zilch. All I know about this time in our country was taught or gleaned from my parents, their interests in history which translated into weekend day trips to visit locations and to surround myself with visuals of the state’s past coupled with the picking up of books from the regional library every Sunday afternoon during my youth. I was selecting books which most children probably shouldn’t have seen without an adult explanation to accompany the grisly photographs and content.
So, if I never received instruction through out my academic career located within a Southern state, during a time of less concern of “hurting the feelings” or being PC of our fellow citizens who are black- then, why should I be so shocked to realize that the generations which follow are pulling down Grant’s statues in a protest about enslavement in our county? But, I am shocked because I expect better out of the future generations.

( Now, just a fleeting aside, I’m also going to go out on a limb here and bring up another concern I feel for these monuments. Maybe someone has voiced these issues and I’ve missed them or they’re overshadowed by the noise of the protests; but, being an artist, I can’t help but feel sick for the artists who created these pieces. It was a honor for them to be commissioned by their peers to create these pieces when they were made. I guess that’s a risk one takes when you create for others? And, I’m also agreeing that no one seems terribly upset for the artists who sculpted statues of Lenin or other unsavory sorts. But, it is another area where I find the tearing down problematic. I cringe when I see the video of bronze or metal statues being pulled to the ground and then mangled by protesters. I see the removal of a creative process and equate it to the burning of a book which doesn’t quite fit the goals of the seated government.)

Please forgive me as I know this reply is all over the place. And, I’ve admitted it before that I don’t know what the right answer is to this deliberation. I, like so many of you, wish there was a much more simplified solution.
But, I can’t help but think the lack of instruction and knowledge about the time leading up, during and after the war is a huge disservice to those who are grabbing onto any hot button topic in the name of equality.
It’s like, yes, you have the freedom to say anything in this country. However, that freedom doesn’t include how the statements will be perceived and what will happen as a result of what you say. You could be incarcerated for making threats, you could lose your job because your speech is problematic to the company for which you work. But, yes, you can freely say anything you choose- but, there could and very well may be ongoing ramifications of those words.
The general public doesn’t seem to fully understand this concept and blindly grab in to the fact that anything that is perceived as a personal censorship of something they believe in is a civil liberties or freedom of speech issue. And, they’re only partially correct in these assumptions.

So, my suggestions are one of circumventing the lack of information that those who are the loudest on the removal of the monuments may have.
Has anyone from the sides wishing to retain the monuments ever say down with the side wishing to remove them? Get a mediator and just talk it out. See why the side of wanting to tear down everything feels this way. Don’t accept the “because it needs to go” comment. Dig deeper. Is it linked to a lack of knowledge of the reasons that caused the war in the first place? I don’t think it’s a stretch for everyone to see that enslaving persons is fundamentally a huge wrong. And, if this is the main reason why those protestors who want to take the statues down are pushing for their removal- well, on certain levels I think we all could agree that it would be very unnerving to be a minority surrounded by “worshipped,” larger than life emblems of what they see as the last attempt to keep them oppressed. It’d just have to be.

Let’s do a little role playing in others’ shoes, shall we?

If you are of strong Irish descent, and everyone who saw you could pick you out as Irish on sight and there were gross generalizations about the Irish and their lack of intelligence, or abilities to keep a job or whatever other negatives were assigned to you merely for being Irish. And, every day if your life, you wake up in a town where your grandparents and parents lived. The same town where you were raised and started your family. And, to get to your work, you have to pass by a huge, centrally located monument that reinforces that descendants of the same town, about a hundred and fifty years ago fought to the death to keep your Irish ancestors working for no pay. It reminds you that even today, you couldn’t sit down on a bus next to a German descent woman because it might get you beat up for being too “friendly”- even though you were tired from working a line job for minimum wage because no one in your family had the money or the pride in themselves to go to college or tell themselves they could do anything they want. So, you already feel oppressed and not a complete equal because the rest of the country tells you that every single day. And, that bus stops at your stop and the first thing you see is a huge monument- not erected by the country - but, by individuals whose descendants are probably still in that same town that glorifies how their ancestors fought to the death to keep you Irish in line as you were the only reason their ancestors were making money growing cotton and selling it to the highest bidder.

I’m just trying to look at all sides here and think how I would feel if I was the one sitting on that bus after a really long day and then had to walk by something that reminded me to the core of my being that I was an Irish person who had never been given the same rights of a country where I now pay taxes and am raising my family.

Then, consider this scenario. I am the proud ancestor of those who chose to fight for their state and their family’s fortune which had been built up over several generations of owning a whole passle of Irish to do the work. My ancestor knew that to keep things as they had been, to fight was the only option. He was trying to save his basic way of life. And, to save the established position that their ancestors had achieved meant going to war. Every time I see that amazing statue in the center of my hometown, I feel a family pride for those who were lost and those who returned maimed from the fighting and those who picked up the pieces after the war and chose to move forward. Yes, our family lost everything either by investing in money being printed by the state’s government which never would be repaid or by looting and burning of the family home by the other side. We didn’t come out of the war with anything. Lost all our Irish to new laws giving them freedom, so there’s no one to even try to recover the fields. We were so beat down from the war itself and still grieving over all the family members that passed away trying to save our way of life. I can’t tell you how seeing such a towering monument to their sacrifices is an honor to the resolve of our family. We’re the proverbial Phoenix in this town. We were down and out and now, we’re doing ok. But, whenever I get upset that the family home got sold to pay debtors and some Irish family bought it - well, I come to see this monument and it takes some of that sting away. I’m never going to let those Irish forget. It’s because of them we lost it all. Yeah, there were the other guys who fought us over it. But, deep down, it’s because those Irish got their freedom that we lost everything.

Then, there’s the historical appreciation of seeing where the Irish were brought in and sold to the highest bidder. The wrongs of our country were righted after an incredibly devastating war which meant there were brothers fighting against brothers. To make sure that we never forget where we have come from and the continued work which still needs to happen for complete equality in our town- we gotta keep this monument here and talk about what it means to both sides. Yeah, it’s a hard thing to discuss for sure. But, if we don’t talk it out it’s just going to fester even longer and cause even more troubles. We need to make sure our children are taught the history of what happened, why it happened, how things can be changed when people can work together and to see citizens of the US merely as citizens. Not Irish citizens, or German or whatever ancestral history we brought to the country. Other than the Native Indians ( whose lands we stole- totally a different topic) we are all a Heinz 57 of our family backgrounds. And, the sooner we understand we’re more alike than not, the sooner we can leave the negatives of the past in the past and move forward. These monuments need to stay right where they are. They are our daily links to remind us all just how far we have come and how much work still needs to be done. We need these monuments as a visual reminder for us all and to continue to strive for equality for all. Leave the statues, but, we need to add more information to explain what the people are seeing when they see this monument. Tell them why this person or people are being honored or memorialized. We can explain that we, as a country, realized some things that were happening to the Irish that we aren’t proud of- but, we need to keep reminding ourself of that dark time so we never slip and go backwards ever again. The monuments really have to stay and we must embrace this teachable moment.

No, you’re all wrong! These statues are harmful and hurtful and just need to go. We don’t care where they go, but they need to go now and just take them away. We believe if we take them all down it will make our little bit of the world a happier place. The Irish won’t ever have to think about that times in their lives when they were owned and not considered a person, merely as an item of ownership. What? No, you’re wrong for wanting to keep these beacons of negativity around us - taking them all away will sterilize the hard feelings. It will be freeing! No, there’s no need to discuss any of this in the classrooms of today. It will just be a difficult situation for the teachers to address and who wants to even think about all the PC verbiage and irate parents who will storm the school because it was even brought up. It’s easier to just let it all go and not think about it ever again. This removal of the monuments is the key to remove whatever is holding back the Irish in their lives. What? Oh, so you think there are more reasons the Irish don’t feel an equal part of our country and these statues might help explain why the country was torn apart and so many lost their lives? No, I disagree. It’s faster and easier to think like an ostrich with our head in the sand and chose not to talk about the specific reasons of this unsavory issue. No need to bring it up to the students in the classrooms at all. We have many other subjects to teach the children and this is one that is just so uncomfortable that it just isn’t anything we really want to bother ourselves to try to learn from. You know, if it’s not there anymore, then we’ll all magically be healed and the Irish can just forget about it all and move forward. What do you mean the Irish won’t forget about it just because it’s being swept under the rug? Out of sight, out of mind is what I always say. So, let’s just go in the middle of the night with some flatbed trucks a couple of cranes and just get these eyesores out of the way. If we rename the land, slap on some flower beds or a playground fast enough then we can just pretend it never even happened.

And, I think there’s a little bit of all of these examples which is good and a lot that is not. So, that’s why I’m suggesting a mediation of the representatives of the groups who wish to keep, the groups which wish them to be removed get together and try to understand more fully where each side is coming from and to try to learn from each other before the courts get involved. Keep working on your court issues in the background if you must. But, has anyone really tried a true non partisan mediation to really get down to the basics of the stalemate of the monuments? It’s cheaper than going to court and it might mean that we could learn if we’re closer in our thoughts about them or if we are still so very far apart. But, these are the sorts of issues where people chose sides without knowing the whole story just because people tend to make generalized seeping decisions in this day in age. They’re so heavily influenced by what is shared on various formats that they don’t even bother to see how close the sides might actually be before going straight into a court situation.
And, to litigate may prove to be the only answer. But, wouldn’t it be great if it wasn’t?
 

PapaReb

First Sergeant
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Location
Arkansas CSA occupied
With the current political environment I’m afraid that any hope of abatement of the removal/destruction phenomena is out the window. I feel fairly confident in saying that we are only a couple of months away of seeing a dramatic escalation in the removal process veiled under the guise of “healing” the national divisions.
If you thought that no one was listening before, get ready, it shows signs that it will get worse and voices of dissent will be silenced.
 

jcaesar

Private
Joined
Aug 28, 2020
Monument destruction and the removal of historic figures names from being on anything is going to get worse before it gets better.

Wait out the movement and find ways to repackage the figures in Southern history that had a positive contributions to our history for modern audiences as was done for Lincoln and Hamilton.

One has to make Civil War history relevant and in vogue for the youth in a way other then old stuff to destroy.
 
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Quaama

Sergeant
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Location
Port Macquarie, Australia
I have to agree as I’ve recently experienced other inanimate objects being wrongly politicized, and have been scratching my head about it for months now.
Guess that’s why I’m asking the obvious questions to so many of you of why are people now deciding to raise these concerns about monuments which have been a part of our fields of vision for decades.
Is it from a low simmering anger which has now grown to a boil?
Is it an active action against not knowing what else to do when faced with the loss of minority life at the hands of those who are to be the basis of protection for our citizens?
Is it a grasp to show concern for our black fellow citizens when there’s nothing else we could do based on the current attitudes of those in office?
Is it a normal realization like the 2001 and 2020 removal of images on state flags to better reflect the beliefs of beginning a dialogue of equality?
Is it the lack of knowledge of our country’s history by the younger members of our country? ( I’m still flummoxed by the pulling down of Grant’s statue by those opposing the past enslaving practices of our country.) And, it’s the personal realization that I, a resident of Georgia, where so much of the Civil War was fought in my literal backyard, after all the years of education I received-including AP History classes in high school and continuing History Classes in my undergraduate days - I never was taught anything about the Civil War. Nothing, nota, zilch. All I know about this time in our country was taught or gleaned from my parents, their interests in history which translated into weekend day trips to visit locations and to surround myself with visuals of the state’s past coupled with the picking up of books from the regional library every Sunday afternoon during my youth. I was selecting books which most children probably shouldn’t have seen without an adult explanation to accompany the grisly photographs and content.
So, if I never received instruction through out my academic career located within a Southern state, during a time of less concern of “hurting the feelings” or being PC of our fellow citizens who are black- then, why should I be so shocked to realize that the generations which follow are pulling down Grant’s statues in a protest about enslavement in our county? But, I am shocked because I expect better out of the future generations.

( Now, just a fleeting aside, I’m also going to go out on a limb here and bring up another concern I feel for these monuments. Maybe someone has voiced these issues and I’ve missed them or they’re overshadowed by the noise of the protests; but, being an artist, I can’t help but feel sick for the artists who created these pieces. It was a honor for them to be commissioned by their peers to create these pieces when they were made. I guess that’s a risk one takes when you create for others? And, I’m also agreeing that no one seems terribly upset for the artists who sculpted statues of Lenin or other unsavory sorts. But, it is another area where I find the tearing down problematic. I cringe when I see the video of bronze or metal statues being pulled to the ground and then mangled by protesters. I see the removal of a creative process and equate it to the burning of a book which doesn’t quite fit the goals of the seated government.)

Please forgive me as I know this reply is all over the place. And, I’ve admitted it before that I don’t know what the right answer is to this deliberation. I, like so many of you, wish there was a much more simplified solution.
But, I can’t help but think the lack of instruction and knowledge about the time leading up, during and after the war is a huge disservice to those who are grabbing onto any hot button topic in the name of equality.
It’s like, yes, you have the freedom to say anything in this country. However, that freedom doesn’t include how the statements will be perceived and what will happen as a result of what you say. You could be incarcerated for making threats, you could lose your job because your speech is problematic to the company for which you work. But, yes, you can freely say anything you choose- but, there could and very well may be ongoing ramifications of those words.
The general public doesn’t seem to fully understand this concept and blindly grab in to the fact that anything that is perceived as a personal censorship of something they believe in is a civil liberties or freedom of speech issue. And, they’re only partially correct in these assumptions.

So, my suggestions are one of circumventing the lack of information that those who are the loudest on the removal of the monuments may have.
Has anyone from the sides wishing to retain the monuments ever say down with the side wishing to remove them? Get a mediator and just talk it out. See why the side of wanting to tear down everything feels this way. Don’t accept the “because it needs to go” comment. Dig deeper. Is it linked to a lack of knowledge of the reasons that caused the war in the first place? I don’t think it’s a stretch for everyone to see that enslaving persons is fundamentally a huge wrong. And, if this is the main reason why those protestors who want to take the statues down are pushing for their removal- well, on certain levels I think we all could agree that it would be very unnerving to be a minority surrounded by “worshipped,” larger than life emblems of what they see as the last attempt to keep them oppressed. It’d just have to be.

Let’s do a little role playing in others’ shoes, shall we?

If you are of strong Irish descent, and everyone who saw you could pick you out as Irish on sight and there were gross generalizations about the Irish and their lack of intelligence, or abilities to keep a job or whatever other negatives were assigned to you merely for being Irish. And, every day if your life, you wake up in a town where your grandparents and parents lived. The same town where you were raised and started your family. And, to get to your work, you have to pass by a huge, centrally located monument that reinforces that descendants of the same town, about a hundred and fifty years ago fought to the death to keep your Irish ancestors working for no pay. It reminds you that even today, you couldn’t sit down on a bus next to a German descent woman because it might get you beat up for being too “friendly”- even though you were tired from working a line job for minimum wage because no one in your family had the money or the pride in themselves to go to college or tell themselves they could do anything they want. So, you already feel oppressed and not a complete equal because the rest of the country tells you that every single day. And, that bus stops at your stop and the first thing you see is a huge monument- not erected by the country - but, by individuals whose descendants are probably still in that same town that glorifies how their ancestors fought to the death to keep you Irish in line as you were the only reason their ancestors were making money growing cotton and selling it to the highest bidder.

I’m just trying to look at all sides here and think how I would feel if I was the one sitting on that bus after a really long day and then had to walk by something that reminded me to the core of my being that I was an Irish person who had never been given the same rights of a country where I now pay taxes and am raising my family.

Then, consider this scenario. I am the proud ancestor of those who chose to fight for their state and their family’s fortune which had been built up over several generations of owning a whole passle of Irish to do the work. My ancestor knew that to keep things as they had been, to fight was the only option. He was trying to save his basic way of life. And, to save the established position that their ancestors had achieved meant going to war. Every time I see that amazing statue in the center of my hometown, I feel a family pride for those who were lost and those who returned maimed from the fighting and those who picked up the pieces after the war and chose to move forward. Yes, our family lost everything either by investing in money being printed by the state’s government which never would be repaid or by looting and burning of the family home by the other side. We didn’t come out of the war with anything. Lost all our Irish to new laws giving them freedom, so there’s no one to even try to recover the fields. We were so beat down from the war itself and still grieving over all the family members that passed away trying to save our way of life. I can’t tell you how seeing such a towering monument to their sacrifices is an honor to the resolve of our family. We’re the proverbial Phoenix in this town. We were down and out and now, we’re doing ok. But, whenever I get upset that the family home got sold to pay debtors and some Irish family bought it - well, I come to see this monument and it takes some of that sting away. I’m never going to let those Irish forget. It’s because of them we lost it all. Yeah, there were the other guys who fought us over it. But, deep down, it’s because those Irish got their freedom that we lost everything.

Then, there’s the historical appreciation of seeing where the Irish were brought in and sold to the highest bidder. The wrongs of our country were righted after an incredibly devastating war which meant there were brothers fighting against brothers. To make sure that we never forget where we have come from and the continued work which still needs to happen for complete equality in our town- we gotta keep this monument here and talk about what it means to both sides. Yeah, it’s a hard thing to discuss for sure. But, if we don’t talk it out it’s just going to fester even longer and cause even more troubles. We need to make sure our children are taught the history of what happened, why it happened, how things can be changed when people can work together and to see citizens of the US merely as citizens. Not Irish citizens, or German or whatever ancestral history we brought to the country. Other than the Native Indians ( whose lands we stole- totally a different topic) we are all a Heinz 57 of our family backgrounds. And, the sooner we understand we’re more alike than not, the sooner we can leave the negatives of the past in the past and move forward. These monuments need to stay right where they are. They are our daily links to remind us all just how far we have come and how much work still needs to be done. We need these monuments as a visual reminder for us all and to continue to strive for equality for all. Leave the statues, but, we need to add more information to explain what the people are seeing when they see this monument. Tell them why this person or people are being honored or memorialized. We can explain that we, as a country, realized some things that were happening to the Irish that we aren’t proud of- but, we need to keep reminding ourself of that dark time so we never slip and go backwards ever again. The monuments really have to stay and we must embrace this teachable moment.

No, you’re all wrong! These statues are harmful and hurtful and just need to go. We don’t care where they go, but they need to go now and just take them away. We believe if we take them all down it will make our little bit of the world a happier place. The Irish won’t ever have to think about that times in their lives when they were owned and not considered a person, merely as an item of ownership. What? No, you’re wrong for wanting to keep these beacons of negativity around us - taking them all away will sterilize the hard feelings. It will be freeing! No, there’s no need to discuss any of this in the classrooms of today. It will just be a difficult situation for the teachers to address and who wants to even think about all the PC verbiage and irate parents who will storm the school because it was even brought up. It’s easier to just let it all go and not think about it ever again. This removal of the monuments is the key to remove whatever is holding back the Irish in their lives. What? Oh, so you think there are more reasons the Irish don’t feel an equal part of our country and these statues might help explain why the country was torn apart and so many lost their lives? No, I disagree. It’s faster and easier to think like an ostrich with our head in the sand and chose not to talk about the specific reasons of this unsavory issue. No need to bring it up to the students in the classrooms at all. We have many other subjects to teach the children and this is one that is just so uncomfortable that it just isn’t anything we really want to bother ourselves to try to learn from. You know, if it’s not there anymore, then we’ll all magically be healed and the Irish can just forget about it all and move forward. What do you mean the Irish won’t forget about it just because it’s being swept under the rug? Out of sight, out of mind is what I always say. So, let’s just go in the middle of the night with some flatbed trucks a couple of cranes and just get these eyesores out of the way. If we rename the land, slap on some flower beds or a playground fast enough then we can just pretend it never even happened.

And, I think there’s a little bit of all of these examples which is good and a lot that is not. So, that’s why I’m suggesting a mediation of the representatives of the groups who wish to keep, the groups which wish them to be removed get together and try to understand more fully where each side is coming from and to try to learn from each other before the courts get involved. Keep working on your court issues in the background if you must. But, has anyone really tried a true non partisan mediation to really get down to the basics of the stalemate of the monuments? It’s cheaper than going to court and it might mean that we could learn if we’re closer in our thoughts about them or if we are still so very far apart. But, these are the sorts of issues where people chose sides without knowing the whole story just because people tend to make generalized seeping decisions in this day in age. They’re so heavily influenced by what is shared on various formats that they don’t even bother to see how close the sides might actually be before going straight into a court situation.
And, to litigate may prove to be the only answer. But, wouldn’t it be great if it wasn’t?

It just looks like mob rule to me.

If people want to peacefully protest against an issue of unlawful police action then do so but realise that such a protest is not an excuse to vandalise (or destroy) statues and monuments let alone nearby shops and other structures.
If people object to a statue of monument then do so but if you want them removed then have a vote on it; do not believe that because you are noisy and have the support of others in the mob that you have a right to take things into your own hands.

The laws of the land should be obeyed. There seems to be abundant evidence (including videos) of who is responsible for unlawful acts. Police should take action to identify and charge any and all individuals acting unlawfully and any subsequent court cases can determine appropriate punishments for those found guilty.
 

Georgia

Sergeant
Monument destruction and the removal of historic figures names from being on anything is going to get worse before it gets better.

Wait out the movement and find ways to repackage the figures in Southern history that had a positive contributions to our history for modern audiences as was done for Lincoln and Hamilton.

One has to make Civil War history relevant and in vogue for the youth in a way other then old stuff to destroy.
So, you really think the time is long passed the point where mediation could be an option? I can’t shake the feeling that these two sides, for or removal are missing an opportunity to have a dialogue.

As I grow older, I’m trying to learn that it’s often better to think a bit more before acting. I’m not saying I’ve perfected it and I’m not saying I ever will. But, a few years ago, I started having really difficult discussions with black visitors to the plantation where I worked and volunteer.
And, I learned an awful lot by listening to the visitors who saw the manor house not as a beautifully appointed home but as the complete product of their ancestors’ labors. From the bricks being made to the cooking and cleaning of the items bought with money from the enslaved labors.

We had a family rent the location for a family reunion. We have weddings there, engagement parties, receptions- so to rent the plantation and amenities wasn’t anything out of the norm. I was asked by the director to be in costume and hearth cooking for the guests to visit the detached kitchen. It was “hotter than 400” that day. So, I was given permission not to have the cooking hearth going. But, I set up everything else for the visitors.

This was an extended family who had been planning this reunion for almost two years. Members flew in from all over the world. Those who were the farthest had come from Liberia. The ladies of this group had the most beautiful grace about them. They were dressed in their native clothing and spoke slowly and deliberately. You hung on their every word and felt honored if they chose to speak with you.

The family had a minister come to the site and offer a blessing, then there was a meal and lastly the family toured the area and outbuildings.

See, this family didn’t just pick out the plantation on a map. They chose the plantation because their common ancestor had been enslaved there. The records we have for the enslaved stop in 1820 as the enslaved were given their freedom earlier than the neighboring plantations. The owners of the plantation at that time were Quaker - I’m sorry, I’m not sure if it was a Quaker wife who married into the family or the specific situation that created their release. We, at the plantation, don’t know the exact story of their ancestor. So, we don’t know if he bought his own freedom or ran away and took it back. But, we do know that this ancestor hopped a boat and ended up in Liberia. I don’t recall how many generations later, but an ancestor of that enslaved person was then the leader of Liberia.

The ladies who had traveled so very far explained to me that they felt it was important to have the entire family visit and walk the same earth that their ancestor had walked. They said the prayer given by the minister expressed gratitude for his enslavement because it ultimately made him who he was and in turn, made them who they are.

I’d never experienced such a gathering and the incredible choice this entire family had made to take being enslaved and make it a positive turning point for them all.

So, while I’m sure those of you who have been working so tirelessly on holding on to the monuments and must feel there is absolutely no room for any discussions at all. Please consider this story and the fact that this particular family embraced their ancestor and used his enslavement as the source of their strength and civic duties and this strength is felt all over the world through the many ancestors.

It’s difficult for me to hear that nothing more can be done by working together. I’m a glass half full sort of person. And, I’ll look for the positives when they don’t exist.

Again, thank you to all who have been working to hold on to our history in these visible ways. I see so many teachable moments with the monuments remaining in place and using them to open up conversations which I believe could be positive for both groups.

But, it sounds like that ship has long sailed. And, that’s very sad to hear.
 
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Georgia

Sergeant
It just looks like mob rule to me.

If people want to peacefully protest against an issue of unlawful police action then do so but realise that such a protest is not an excuse to vandalise (or destroy) statues and monuments let alone nearby shops and other structures.
If people object to a statue of monument then do so but if you want them removed then have a vote on it; do not believe that because you are noisy and have the support of others in the mob that you have a right to take things into your own hands.

The laws of the land should be obeyed. There seems to be abundant evidence (including videos) of who is responsible for unlawful acts. Police should take action to identify and charge any and all individuals acting unlawfully and any subsequent court cases can determine appropriate punishments for those found guilty.
That’s such a logical thought process. And, one would hope it could be followed. But, others can speak much more knowledgeably on whether or not there have been any sort of charges filed toward people who destroy property like the monuments. Did those in Richmond, who have been working so very hard to keep the history in place, find that there were any charges brought toward vandalism of the monuments?

I remember watching so many videos this past summer showing just what you described. And, I wonder if any municipalities brought charges?
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
It just looks like mob rule to me.

If people want to peacefully protest against an issue of unlawful police action then do so but realise that such a protest is not an excuse to vandalise (or destroy) statues and monuments let alone nearby shops and other structures.
If people object to a statue of monument then do so but if you want them removed then have a vote on it; do not believe that because you are noisy and have the support of others in the mob that you have a right to take things into your own hands.

The laws of the land should be obeyed. There seems to be abundant evidence (including videos) of who is responsible for unlawful acts. Police should take action to identify and charge any and all individuals acting unlawfully and any subsequent court cases can determine appropriate punishments for those found guilty.
But therein seems to be the problem, as some officials who were sworn in to enforce the laws for everyone, regardless of party, race or any other affiliation.....seem to prefer to cater to parts of their constituency instead of doing their sworn duty.

So you are left with mob rule......and no consequences for the mob.......
 

jcaesar

Private
Joined
Aug 28, 2020
So, you really think the time is long passed the point where mediation could be an option? I can’t shake the feeling that these two sides, for or removal are missing an opportunity to have a dialogue.

Mediation between who and who? In the years after the Civil War it was between Northern and Southern officers that an understanding that what Shelby Foote called 'The Great Compromise' was reached.


He felt the compromise was coming apart already in the 90s and early 00s. The issue comes down that there is no single group that speaks for the opposition to make a deal with. There are a half dozen groups I can name against monuments and I can't think of any of them that would suddenly drop their campaigns for some compromise.

These groups are competing with other like minded groups for members and influence and really can't make a compromise (at least for very long) otherwise they lose members to other groups willing to continue the fight. Once the southern monuments are all gone these same activist groups will focus much more of their attention on other statues because they need to keep a conflict going to keep their members energized and from going over to other groups.
 
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Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Supervisor Dixon Leatherbury urged citizens to not apply 21st​ century standards to individuals who lived in the 19th​ century.



The Democratic-led House and Senate passed measures that would undo an existing state law that protects the monuments and instead let local governments decide their fate. The passage marks the latest turn in Virginia’s long running debate over how its history should be told in public spaces.



One of the first bills passed by the Democrat controlled Virginia General Assembly was to remove historic protection of Confederate monuments, leaving the decision to keep or remove them to the localities.
 

PapaReb

First Sergeant
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Location
Arkansas CSA occupied
Supervisor Dixon Leatherbury urged citizens to not apply 21st​ century standards to individuals who lived in the 19th​ century.



The Democratic-led House and Senate passed measures that would undo an existing state law that protects the monuments and instead let local governments decide their fate. The passage marks the latest turn in Virginia’s long running debate over how its history should be told in public spaces.



One of the first bills passed by the Democrat controlled Virginia General Assembly was to remove historic protection of Confederate monuments, leaving the decision to keep or remove them to the localities.
That would be a great compromise as long as the localities put the matter to a vote of the people of that locality and don't make autocratic decisions themselves. I think that we have all seen that by and large most people would be in favor of keeping them or fall in to the camp of really not caring because their presence has no bearing on their daily lives.
 

jcaesar

Private
Joined
Aug 28, 2020
Virginia already passed that bill and some localities abided by the terms and some like Richmond declared a public health emergency over the threat of falling statues and removed them without following the terms.

The bill would only have been good if it required the locality to vote on it.
 

Quaama

Sergeant
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Location
Port Macquarie, Australia
Virginia already passed that bill and some localities abided by the terms and some like Richmond declared a public health emergency over the threat of falling statues and removed them without following the terms.

The bill would only have been good if it required the locality to vote on it.

Yes, that 'public health emergency' was a joke in very poor taste.
People act unlawfully to deface, damage and destroy public property. The response of the authorities is not to apprehend and prosecute such people but instead pass a law removing the public property they objected to in carrying out their illegal acts. This encourages anyone with similar complaints to act in a similar manner.
 
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