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Side bar Union Enlistments Before and After Emancipation

Discussion in 'Civil War History - General Discussion' started by leftyhunter, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Lt. Colonel

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    Historian James McPherson has,a book called "why they fought".Keep in mind over one hundred thousand white men enlisted in the Union Army". I have,a,sourced thread that covers thst" how effective were Unionist regiments"
    There is a great book on that subject "Lincolns Loyalists Union soldiers from the Confederacy " Richard Current Northeastern University Press .
    Current notes of the 170k black troops most were from the South.
    More men from the border states joined the Union Army then the Confederate Army.
    So no not all Southern men thought secession was,such a great idea.
    @jgoodguy has numerous threads that show that the founding fathers,and the Supreme Court did not support the right of secession.
    Leftyhunter
     
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  3. David Ireland

    David Ireland Private

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    sounds like I'm going to have to pay him a visit and straighten out his confusion :smile:@jgoodguy
     
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  4. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Lt. Colonel

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    Good luck @jgoodguy is all about documentation. While legal thinking certainly does evolve overtime so far secession has not caught on among legal scholars and members of the judiciary.
    Leftyhunter
     
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  5. David Ireland

    David Ireland Private

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    I'm not worried. You can't make up facts lol. True but it's just flat out historically false that secession was not widely accepted by most people at the founding. To hell with the slaveholders, but that's just way too simplistic reasoning to get into that because slavery was immoral, therefore there can be no legal legitimacy for the secessionists. Law and morality often are different things.

    better save it for another forum though
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  6. David Ireland

    David Ireland Private

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    @jgoodguy What's the link to your main premise?
     
  7. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Hey. Looking forward to all that documentation about secession was widely accepted by most people at the founding. First define what you think secession is so we are on the same page. Which founding? Declaration of Independence at which time states could be colonies or committees claiming to represent colonies, the establishment of the AOC or the founding of the Constitutional government. OTOH you can have any opinion you wish, just note that it is an opinion and not evidenced fact. Looking forward to being informed.
    This is your dance and your premise if you have one.
    @leftyhunter and it begins
     
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  8. O' Be Joyful

    O' Be Joyful First Sergeant

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    I went to a hockey game last night and another secession fight broke out!

    Note: Blatantly stolen from the great Rodney Dangerfield.
     
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  9. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    I can relate. Used to be worst back when I became the host of the Secession forum.
    Looking forward to hard information and being educated.
     
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  10. O' Be Joyful

    O' Be Joyful First Sergeant

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    Ahh, the good old days. Oh wait, you were talkin about Rodney, right? :smile:
     
  11. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    In the old days we discussed modern partisan politics, religion, gun control, abortion, evolution in real shoot outs. Then one day management said wait a minute, this is a civil war forum and stopped it.
     
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  12. Lnwlf

    Lnwlf Brigadier General Moderator

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    Thank goodness!
     
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  13. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Lt. Colonel

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    I can't speak for @jgoodguy but the Supreme Court decision Texas v.White 1866 would be a good place to start.
    Leftyhunter
     
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  14. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    In that case, my premise would be don't trade in dodgy bonds in a rebellion.
    And secession is a political event, not a legal one which can be either violent rebellion or peaceful permission of the other States AKA negotiated exit.
     
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  15. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Lt. Colonel

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    Texas v.White is not the worst place to start. Yes the founding fathers also per past threads spoke about why secession is not such a great idea.
    Leftyhunter
     
  16. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    It is difficult to find anyone in favor of secession. The first opinion I have found is " We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately." by Ben Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Even Calhoun was not unqualified in favor of secession. Looking forward to finding out what David Ireland has in mind otherwise there are so many possibilities.
     
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  17. Borderruffian

    Borderruffian 1st Lieutenant

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    Yes, southerners served in union units, southerners raised union regiments, not all southerners supported the CSA. Point?
     
  18. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Lt. Colonel

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    Simply to inform the OP that not all Southerners recognized the so called right of secession and many fought against it.
    If we look at the South has a,ehole maybe at best a small majority of Southerners supported the Confederacy. Certainly not the black population at 40% of the South's entire population and of course the Unionists. Also has I have noted in the past many young Southern men voted with their feet and deserted the Confederate Army.
    Leftyhunter
     
  19. David Ireland

    David Ireland Private

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    Can something become constitutional just because SCOTUS says so? How about Brown v. Board of Education? Dredd Scott? Citizens United?

    Or is it possible that a body of nine politically connected lawyers could rubber stamp everything they wanted to see become law, regardless of the text or intent of the legislatures?

    We were never supposed to have that sort of judicial system, but that's another discussion.
     
  20. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Lt. Colonel

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    That's why elections matter. Dred Scot was overturned by the 13th Amendment.
    Pleasey v.Feurguson was overturned by Brown v. Board of Education.
    Yes something is or is not counstiutional based on what the Supreme Court says it is.
    By the same token over time a Supreme Court decision can be overturned but it takes a lot of political effort.
    Leftyhunter
     
  21. David Ireland

    David Ireland Private

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    The text of the law and the intent of the legislature may be manipulated later by people with agendas, but that doesn't mean that the law actually supports that particular "interpretation".
     

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