Side Bar T or F? Official Records: No Confederate ever refs black soldiers under his command

E_just_E

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You might get a better luck finding out references about people who were claimed that were abducted by aliens.

Not sure why this dead horse needs to be beaten up to yet another death...

I'd love to see all "Black Confederates" discussion and threads moved to the Campfire Chat forum, because that's where they belong...
 

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Youngblood

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Go see Andersonh1's thread and stop pretending. You all can still hate the Southern Confederacy with some black soldiers fighting for it.
 

ForeverFree

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You might get a better luck finding out references about people who were claimed that were abducted by aliens.

Not sure why this dead horse needs to be beaten up to yet another death...

I'd love to see all "Black Confederates" discussion and threads moved to the Campfire Chat forum, because that's where they belong...
It is probably is a dead horse to a lot of people. I've pointed out that I am a volunteer docent/historical interpreter at the African American Civil War Museum. The Museum gets hundreds of visitors a week. At least once a week, somebody asks me about Black Confederates. I try to give them an educated response, so I probably follow this subject more than others.

My usual answer to these inquires is, the count of BC is greater than zero, but no reliable full accounting of their numbers has been made. But from all the evidence I see, the occurrence of black Confederates ~ men who were enlisted or dedicated combatants ~ was rare, atypical, and exceptional; and their impact on the conduct of the war, or affect on their society, was inconsequential at best. If the Official Records have no examples of Confederate officers mentioning black Confederates under their command, that is evidence I can point to for people who ask the question.

- Alan
 

leftyhunter

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Go see Andersonh1's thread and stop pretending. You all can still hate the Southern Confederacy with some black soldiers fighting for it.
I asked @Andersonh1 in his newspaper thread to confirm based on the newspaper thread just how black Confederate really exsisted. @jgoodguy even created a thread based on that question. No replies from those who claim black Confederate existed. We have another thread from @jgoodguy on confirming black Confederate soldiers really exsisted . Maybe less then 50 confirmed soldiers and late in the war at that.
Some facts would be nice.
Leftyhunter
 

E_just_E

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. At least once a week, somebody asks me about Black Confederates. I try to give them an educated response, so I probably follow this subject more than others.
I think that the most educated response to that question is to refer to the laws of the Confederacy, which did not authorize African-Americans to enlist until General Order No. 14 was issued on March 23, 1865, and call it a day :smile:
 

ForeverFree

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I think that the most educated response to that question is to refer to the laws of the Confederacy, which did not authorize African-Americans to enlist until General Order No. 14 was issued on March 23, 1865, and call it a day :smile:
That is a point I make. There is always a small number of people who really need a barrage of evidence to be convinced. But this is getting me off-topic...

- Alan
 

jgoodguy

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Check the date on that :smile:

April Fools.

By then all was possible. Was after the March 23, 1865 day of the General Order No. 14.

Given that Lee surrendered 8 days after that, the Hospital Battalion did not do much fighting, I suspect...
One other possibility is that the 'Hospital Battalion' numbered about 80. Could just be an extra 0
 

E_just_E

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So, yeah, it seems like a bogus conspiracy theory, but I don't want to just rest on the laurel that it's bogus, when proof can be given to show it's bogus.
Methinks you have bigger fish to fry, like the assertions that slaves a. liked their condition compared to the opposite, b. did not know what they wanted to do when freed, etc.
 

jgoodguy

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1865-03-30, Richmond Sentinel; a free negro in Maj. Turner's battalion grows tired of the drill and decides to walk off with stolen clothes

From the Richmond Sentinel, 3/30/1865, p. 2, c. 7

NEGRO DESERTER. - The free negro John Scott, who was received as a member of Major Turner’s battalion a few days ago, became suddenly tired of going through the manual, and took his departure on Sunday last for parts unknown, carrying with him about twenty-five pairs of soldiers’ drawers, shirts, &c., belonging to some of the boys.
 

WJC

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I think that the most educated response to that question is to refer to the laws of the Confederacy, which did not authorize African-Americans to enlist until General Order No. 14 was issued on March 23, 1865, and call it a day :smile:
Thanks for initiating this thread.
One would suspect that ORs or other official documents would be far more reliable than newspaper articles of the period, whose pages were often filled with rumor, hearsay and outright fantasy.
 

Mdiesel

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I've made the point that, if there were black Confederates (BCs), then the Confederate military was engaged in the biggest coverup in American military history, because there's just about nothing about BCs in the OR.

Well... there was somebody on this forum who theorized that there were thousands of black Confederate soldiers, but Confederate army men refused to report this because it was illegal. Yeah, it sounds bogus. But how do you prove it isn't true - maybe the secret died with them! (I'm just repeating what I heard.)

=> Actually the OR is of great help here. See, for example, post #3. If, as said in an article, that Kirby Smith was enlisting slaves, then why does he seem so concerned about the Union capturing slaves and enlisting them in the US army? Smith's tone and tenor in the OR seem to contradict the idea that he was about to enlist all these slaves.

In another set of Correspondence, a CSA officer asked if an exception could be made to the rule that blacks could not join the army; the officer said there were free blacks in Mobile who would be willing to serve if given a chance. CSA Sec of War James Seddon wrote back that "our position before the North and the world will not allow us t employ negroes as soldiers."

And then there's the famous letter from Howell Cobb, who was a Confederate officer, who famously stated "you cannot make soldiers of slaves, nor slaves of soldiers... You can’t keep white and black troops together, and you can’t trust negroes by themselves... If slaves will make good soldiers our whole theory of slavery is wrong but they won’t make soldiers."

And I'm sure there's more than just those examples.

So, yeah, it seems like a bogus conspiracy theory, but I don't want to just rest on the laurel that it's bogus, when proof can be given to show it's bogus.

- Alan
Well you could also simply point to Patrick Cleburne's appeal for Blacks being officially enlisted. This was during a point in the war where it actually might have made a some if little difference... It was rejected unequivocally by the Confederate Government. some have even suggested this it cost Cleburne the chance of higher command.
 

jgoodguy

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If you qualify the term "Black Enlisted Soldiers", to "Black Combatants", here are two :

Report of Confederate Colonel Thomas Munford on an engagement with the Virginia Unionist Partisan unit “The Loudoun Rangers.” January 25, 1862.War of the Rebellion: Serial 016 Page 0749 Chapter XXIV. CAMPAIGN IN NORTHERN VIRGINIA :

On the 31st the brigade accompanied General Stuart on a scout to Chantilly, picking up 200 or 300 prisoners. A portion of the Twelfth, under Lieutenant-Colonel [R. H.] Burks, captured one company of the Tenth New York Cavalry without firing a gun.
On the evening of September 1, while our troops were engaged on the Ox road, near Germantown, my regiment was ordered to Leesburg to capture Means and his party.
About 11 a. m. the next day I arrived at Leesburg. Learning that Means was in the town, I cut across from the Dranesville pike and entered the town by the Edwards Ferry road. I succeeded in surprising Means’ party, Means himself escaping. He was supported by Major Cole, of Maryland, with about 200 men, on the Point of Rocks road. Without halting in the town I pressed heavily upon him, and soon succeeded in routing his command after a heavy skirmish, and pursued them as far as Waterford, 7 miles. My command amounted to 163 men, about 40 of which number, including Captain Dickinson and Lieutenants [W. R.] Beale and [A. D.] Warwick, did not join in the charge from some cause not yet explained. Had they followed their comrades in this bold charge I do not think a dozen of the whole Yankee command would have escaped being either killed or captured. As it was, we killed 11, wounded 9 too badly to be sent away, besides some 10 or 11 who escaped badly wounded, and sent off 47 prisoners, including 2 captains and 3 lieutenants.
In this charge Lieutenant J. O. Davis, of Company E, was killed while gallantly leading the advance of his company. Lieutenant John O. Lasley, of Company K, had his arm fractured by a rifle-ball, Sergt. Charles Spears, Company C, was killed. Private N. McGhee, Captain Dearing, of Company F, and John Merryman, of Company I, were badly wounded. It is proper to report that Edward, a servant of Private English, Company K, went into the charge, following his master, gun in hand, and shot the notorious Everhart, who was left in Leesburg, badly wounded.
* * * * * * *

I am, Major, very respectfully, your most obedient servant,
THOMAS T. MUNFORD,
Colonel Second Virginia Cavalry.

The second is a rather lengthy report authored by Thomas J. Jackson 2 weeks before 1st Bull Run. It can be found here :
War of the Rebellion: Serial 002 Page 0186 OPERATIONS IN MD., PA., VA., AND W. VA. Chapter IX.

An excerpt reads :
"Colonel Stuart reports his capture of an entire company (the Fifteenth Pennsylvania Volunteers), with the exception of the Captain. Three, resisting, were killed. He further reports that "one of the enemy was killed by a negro of Captain Carter's and one of Captain Patrick's Company." The following is his list of prisoners: Forty-three privates, Fifteenth Pennsylvania Volunteers; one second lieutenant, one surgeon, one (position not known), but all of the Fifteenth Pennsylvania Volunteers; one Private First Wisconsin Volunteers; two Privates Second U. S. Cavalry, mounted and equipped; making a total of forty-nine. He reports one wounded and two missing. The enemy, he states, entered Martinsburg at 12 n. to-day".

Stretching combatant a wee bit. The closest thing I can come up with is unprivileged combatants.
In short so called black confederates were breaking the laws of their country, CSA army regulations and the laws of war.


 

jgoodguy

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Most likely those type records are not in the ORs.
As far as evidence, the top one has no rank. Maybe a cook or musician.

The second one has a rank of private which IMHO is presumptuously a combatant although there are issues raised by others. IMHO let a false positive in rather than argue endlessly about it. It is not going to matter in the long run as some small number of Black Confederates is conceded.

A related and normally unresolvable issue is if the person in a record appears white or mostly white but labeled free negro.
 
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As far as evidence, the top one has no rank. Maybe a cook or musician
As I see it, these are two pages, dealing with the same man, Presley Hines.
Well, I will not pursue this as I have learned here that the question of "Black Confederates" always seems to open a can of worms. I don't intend to do that, but proof seems to be overwhelming to me. Thanks for telling that a small number of Black Confederates is conceded. That explains a lot!
 


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