Should there be a Confederate flag outside the MOC at Appomattox?

Should there be a Confederate flag outside the MOC at Appomattox?

  • Yes - any Confederate flag including the CBF

    Votes: 29 61.7%
  • Yes - but not the CBF

    Votes: 7 14.9%
  • No

    Votes: 11 23.4%

  • Total voters
    47
  • Poll closed .
I sometimes browse the ' What's New ' option here before logging in, just out of curiosity, I suppose to see if there's anything interesting the Kindergarten Kid should go poke around in. I was a little baffled as to why an old thread was dug out, you don't have to try THAT hard to find something to make your point with around here. 'A' for effort, but have to say, Mason Dixon, that if you're looking for a polarizing member around whom to build another 4 a.m. shot filled with resentment across the harbor ( or the forum ) could not have picked a worse one than Unionblue. Emotionless on History? Oi. That's the least eye-popping thing you accused him of. Hopefully you'll take that whole 'love' thing to heart and depart in Peace.

I've warned you, now am going to go find a nice spot behind a tree.
 
The three Confederate national flags, the Battle Flag along with the state flags of the Confederate States should be the only flags flown outside the Museum of the Confederacy.

"Under it we won our victories and its glory will never fade. It is enshrined in our hearts forever."
Varina Howell Davis (Speaking of the Confederate Battle Flag)
 
The MoC, as a private organization, has rolled the dice. Will flying a flag offend more than not flying a flag? It has decided to not fly a flag. The choice to attend is ours.

As you said, way back when, Ole, they made their decision and I made mine. I dropped my membership, have donated no money and will not attend.
 
"History is neither moral, or immoral" - Herman Wouk. If we buy into that premise, there's little room for emotion and the forum is real educational. However, when we get emotionally attached to our personal interpretations of history, this forum gets real entertaining! :D
 
At one time I was interested in transitioning from a corporate to a museum career. Waite Rawls was very friendly, helpful, and supportive A very smart guy, a nice guy, and a true Southern gentleman. He is personally responsible for the complete turnaround of the Museum of the Confederacy from a failing institution to one of the outstanding museums in this country. I have seen all this vitriol spewed out against him because he won't toe the politically correct Lost Cause Neo-Confederate line, and it ain't right.
I have also met and heard Susan Hathaway of the Virginia Flaggers speak. She reminded me of the Code Pink or Occupy Wall Street mentality-the shrillness, the self righteousness, the self indulgence, the childish temper tantrum attitude, the in -your- face stupidity.
 
I'm with you man.. I'm a relatively new member here, not trying to step on toes.. but I noticed UnionBlue's posts imply (and/or outright state) that emotion should be divested from history, while his posts/tone are spiritually anti-Confederate.
It doesn't hurt my feelings when someone is pro-Union, or pro-Confederate. The events of history bring out our core feelings & beliefs. I think it's naive to reduce history to objective fact-finding. We all need heroes from history to underwrite our cultural self-confidence. Ultimately it's a lot about ancestor worship & how we as human beings need that.. I know I do.. I dont care if my ancestors were morally perfect, whose were (?)
The guys w/Ohio, NH, PA in their avatars are saying they're ok w/no Confederate flag out front, guys w/ SC & TN are saying fly it.. that to me says it all.. we all have emotional & provential responses to history, so what. peace
Emotion can (and does for a lot of people) cloud history, and logic.

Kevin Dally
 
My opinion on the flag is that it's up to the property owners. But even if it had tax-supported dollars, considering it's the Confederate Museum of History, I don't mind what if any flags they fly as long as the U.S. flag is flown properly as well. I don't want to see any Confederate flag waving over my public courthouse, but it seems OK to me for the museum to do so if they want.

However -- correct me if I'm wrong; I probably am -- during the war years, wasn't the battle flag just flown in battle? So why does it need to be the one that's flown outside the museum? Another point (I'm not emotionally attached to this, just askin') -- since it's a museum, if they weren't going to be "farb-ish" wouldn't the flag need to be genuine? And so wouldn't it be a bad idea, conservation-wise, to fly a genuine, 150-something-year-old Confederate flag outside in the weather rather than protected in a case inside, as they currently do?

I think their current answer is a pretty good one -- a Confederate flag, but not the CBF, is displayed prominently at the entrance. I also think it's important to remember that many people who view the CBF with distaste and anger do not do so because it is associated with the Confederacy. They do so because it became associated with the Klan and other hate groups. The museum cannot undo that past. I personally don't think anyone can. Perhaps if the SCV and other white leadership of earlier generations had been able to repudiate such exploitation when it was happening in the 50s, 60s and onward, the flag could have been reclaimed as a symbol of pride. But it was all too successfully hijacked, and I think the museum leadership realizes that. As Langston Hughes said of black music, "They done taken our blues and gone." As far as Confederate heritage goes, the Klan done taken the CBF and gone. I can sympathize with how angry that would make me as a Southern partisan, but I think the way the fighting continues over it actually makes things worse instead of better. Gets some press though.
 
I have also met and heard Susan Hathaway of the Virginia Flaggers speak. . . .

They rely on base emotion to keep their momentum in the absence of significant accomplishment; they are the expression of the Confederate id. Hathaway, in particular, is a master at stirrin' up resentment ("Are YOU mad enough yet? RISE UP, VIRGINIA!") in response to trivial or manufactured slights.

Mark Vogl, the self-styled "chancellor" of a subscription website he calls the "Confederate War College," said last year that Hathaway may be the South's "own version of Sarah Palin." I agree entirely.
 
It certainly is their privilege. I did not advocate flying the battle flag, but thought the decision to not fly even a First National at the Appomattox site was the wrong one. For that reason I withdrew support. I know they don't care but I felt it was bowing to politically correct pressure not to do so. If they are ashamed of the flag how can they properly represent the heritage of those who fought for it. Their privilege, just as it's mine to reject their decision.
 
It certainly is their privilege. I did not advocate flying the battle flag, but thought the decision to not fly even a First National at the Appomattox site was the wrong one. For that reason I withdrew support. I know they don't care but I felt it was bowing to politically correct pressure not to do so. If they are ashamed of the flag how can they properly represent the heritage of those who fought for it. Their privilege, just as it's mine to reject their decision.


Forgive my ignorance, but is the flag at the entrance considered "displayed" rather than "flown" because it's not on a flagpole? Are they "flying" the U.S. flag or not flying any flags at all? Do museums usually have flagpoles and fly flags? I'm not being snarky, just dumb.
 
Forgive my ignorance, but is the flag at the entrance considered "displayed" rather than "flown" because it's not on a flagpole? Are they "flying" the U.S. flag or not flying any flags at all? Do museums usually have flagpoles and fly flags? I'm not being snarky, just dumb.

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They fly the United States flag on the grounds, plus the current state flags of former members of the Confederacy. Several states in the Confederacy did not have official state flags in 1861-65, and some (e.g., Mississippi Georgia, Arkansas) subsequently adopted flags that incorporate design elements of Confederate flags. More generally, museums often have flagpoles, but it varies according to each institution's preference.

The MoC also has, between the Richmond and Appomattox locations, the largest and best-preserved collection of Confederate flags in the world, many of which are on exhibit at any given time. The MoC has no hesitancy in displaying the flag within the context of history.

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What it largely boils down to is that some want the Museum of the Confederacy to be a shrine to the Confederacy. Those are not the same thing, nor should they be.
 
Forgive my ignorance, but is the flag at the entrance considered "displayed" rather than "flown" because it's not on a flagpole? Are they "flying" the U.S. flag or not flying any flags at all? Do museums usually have flagpoles and fly flags? I'm not being snarky, just dumb.
Only one of the museums I have worked at in my life has flown a flag, that was the Rock island Arsenal Museum, on an Army post and it was the US flag flown every day. Two others on military bases had no flag pole at all.

The flap over the lack of a perkins sized CBF outside the MoC is a manufactured one. As I said in my first post on this thread those who suddenly say they won't support the MoC because they won't toe the Lost Cause line have proven they aren't in this for preservation of artifacts or of history, they have a different agenda and always have.

They don't want a US flag there, ever.
 
Only one of the museums I have worked at in my life has flown a flag, that was the Rock island Arsenal Museum, on an Army post and it was the US flag flown every day. Two others on military bases had no flag pole at all.
That's because they cant, only the headquarters building of the senior ranking commander is technically supposed to fly the US flag. Other commanders usually fly their rank flag (for general officers only), or a representation of the unit they command. Other places will fly whatever they choose, but the US flag is a no go on a post/base unless you are the senior officer at his headquarters.
 
That's because they cant, only the headquarters building of the senior ranking commander is technically supposed to fly the US flag. Other commanders usually fly their rank flag (for general officers only), or a representation of the unit they command. Other places will fly whatever they choose, but the US flag is a no go on a post/base unless you are the senior officer at his headquarters.

Having pretty much grown up in base housing, maybe I ought to have known that...but my recollection is that our flagpole was in the middle of the central traffic circle (maybe not regulation?). One of my strongest memories is that when the flag was coming down at night, every car on base stopped wherever they were, and every person walking stopped and waited in silence. Although you might not be in sight of the flagpole, you could could hear the bugle everywhere. It was like time stood still for just a minute of reverence.
 
Having pretty much grown up in base housing, maybe I ought to have known that...but my recollection is that our flagpole was in the middle of the central traffic circle (maybe not regulation?). One of my strongest memories is that when the flag was coming down at night, every car on base stopped wherever they were, and every person walking stopped and waited in silence. Although you might not be in sight of the flagpole, you could could hear the bugle everywhere. It was like time stood still for just a minute of reverence.
I wasn't saying that it was right outside the door necessarily, but it is usually in the immediate vicinity of "Building 1" (army slang for the post headquarters). That way the flag detail that usually stays at the command building can have easy access to it for reveille (raising of the flag at the beginning of the duty day) and retreat (lowering at the end of the duty).

I don't think cars are required to stop anymore (at least I haven;t seen it since I was at Fort Stewart a few years ago), as it has caused accidents when some people couldn't hear it and some could, but I always try to stop if I can hear it over my Civil War audiobooks.
 
I'm with you man.. I'm a relatively new member here, not trying to step on toes.. but I noticed UnionBlue's posts imply (and/or outright state) that emotion should be divested from history, while his posts/tone are spiritually anti-Confederate.
It doesn't hurt my feelings when someone is pro-Union, or pro-Confederate. The events of history bring out our core feelings & beliefs. I think it's naive to reduce history to objective fact-finding. We all need heroes from history to underwrite our cultural self-confidence. Ultimately it's a lot about ancestor worship & how we as human beings need that.. I know I do.. I dont care if my ancestors were morally perfect, whose were (?)
The guys w/Ohio, NH, PA in their avatars are saying they're ok w/no Confederate flag out front, guys w/ SC & TN are saying fly it.. that to me says it all.. we all have emotional & provential responses to history, so what. peace
I hope you didn't get the wrong idea as unionblue and I go back aways. We both consider ourselves as good friends and we both like to stir the pot to get some good debates started. I respect unionblue and his comments and always welcome his comments even if I don't agree sometimes with them. We just get a little up tight at times. He's a good man!:thumbsup:
 
The MoC also has, between the Richmond and Appomattox locations, the largest and best-preserved collection of Confederate flags in the world, many of which are on exhibit at any given time. The MoC has no hesitancy in displaying the flag within the context of history.

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What it largely boils down to is that some want the Museum of the Confederacy to be a shrine to the Confederacy. Those are not the same thing, nor should they be.

:wavespin: A great post!

Boy, I HATE to see the CBF used as a spring board for stiring up anger, and that is the whole thing here, to rile people up!
Are not THOSE inside Enough? I mean they are the real deal, and nothing outside flown, would come close to what is inside!

Kevin Dally
 
Having pretty much grown up in base housing, maybe I ought to have known that...but my recollection is that our flagpole was in the middle of the central traffic circle (maybe not regulation?). One of my strongest memories is that when the flag was coming down at night, every car on base stopped wherever they were, and every person walking stopped and waited in silence. Although you might not be in sight of the flagpole, you could could hear the bugle everywhere. It was like time stood still for just a minute of reverence.

I didn't 'like' this as part of the technical argument on whatgoeswhereandwhy, since I don't know enough, would sound silly. I hadn't heard that this is what goes on, on a military base. It just gave me the good willies, that there's this basic observance to the Flag as part of every-day life. No, am not suggesting the patriotic moment for all of our society, it's obviously something for a specialized atmosphere- just boy, loved the bejeesis out of the symbolism. Thanks for posting that.
 
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