Shelby's march to Mexico--Questions

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
I'm reading SHELBY'S EXPEDITION TO MEXICO, AN UNWRITTEN LEAF OF THE WAR, by John Newman Edwards. As most of you know, his flowery writing style is often difficult to handle, but this seems to be one of his better-written books.

He asserted a couple of things that have me wondering. I'm curious whether anyone can either verify or debunk these assertions. One seems at least plausible to me, but I've never hear or read either of them before and I was fairly surprised when I came across them in this book.

First, Edwards states that Lincoln wished an "open road" to be left through Texas for any Confederates wishing to retreat to Mexico. He doesn't state whether this was an official order or more of an unofficial sort of directive.

The Confederates would be allowed to take with them any quantity of weapons, ammunition and supplies they wished to transport. This is the assertion that seems somewhat plausible to me. (Easier to allow them to leave than to force their surrender). Further, any Union troops who wished to follow the Confederates to Mexico would be allowed to do so as soon as their periods of enlistment were finished. The purported reason was so that these soldiers could drive out the French and re-establish Juarez. Edwards says this information came to Shelby indirectly via his cousin, Frank P. Blair.

Second, Edwards states that Shelby received numerous requests sent from Union outfits asking him to wait until they could join him at the end of their enlistments. This seems much less plausible to me. It seems to me that most Union soldiers would have every reason to return home, rather than ride off to another war in another country.

I have no previous knowledge of either of these assertions. Is anyone familiar with such a plan by Lincoln?
 
Second, Edwards states that Shelby received numerous requests sent from Union outfits asking him to wait until they could join him at the end of their enlistments. This seems much less plausible to me. It seems to me that most Union soldiers would have every reason to return home, rather than ride off to another war in another country.

Perhaps it would be the "thrill" of battle that would have compelled northern soldiers to consider going south-of-the-border.

Such is the case with our modern soldiers re-enlisting two and three times.
 
I'm reading SHELBY'S EXPEDITION TO MEXICO, AN UNWRITTEN LEAF OF THE WAR, by John Newman Edwards. As most of you know, his flowery writing style is often difficult to handle, but this seems to be one of his better-written books.

He asserted a couple of things that have me wondering. I'm curious whether anyone can either verify or debunk these assertions. One seems at least plausible to me, but I've never hear or read either of them before and I was fairly surprised when I came across them in this book.

First, Edwards states that Lincoln wished an "open road" to be left through Texas for any Confederates wishing to retreat to Mexico. He doesn't state whether this was an official order or more of an unofficial sort of directive.

The Confederates would be allowed to take with them any quantity of weapons, ammunition and supplies they wished to transport. This is the assertion that seems somewhat plausible to me. (Easier to allow them to leave than to force their surrender). Further, any Union troops who wished to follow the Confederates to Mexico would be allowed to do so as soon as their periods of enlistment were finished. The purported reason was so that these soldiers could drive out the French and re-establish Juarez. Edwards says this information came to Shelby indirectly via his cousin, Frank P. Blair.

Second, Edwards states that Shelby received numerous requests sent from Union outfits asking him to wait until they could join him at the end of their enlistments. This seems much less plausible to me. It seems to me that most Union soldiers would have every reason to return home, rather than ride off to another war in another country.

I have no previous knowledge of either of these assertions. Is anyone familiar with such a plan by Lincoln?

Never heard of anything like that. But some folks follow wars around fighting.
I'm still annoyed that Shelby burned the Carthage, MO courthouse the second time and generally played hob around here!
 
I'm reading SHELBY'S EXPEDITION TO MEXICO, AN UNWRITTEN LEAF OF THE WAR, by John Newman Edwards. As most of you know, his flowery writing style is often difficult to handle, but this seems to be one of his better-written books.

He asserted a couple of things that have me wondering. I'm curious whether anyone can either verify or debunk these assertions. One seems at least plausible to me, but I've never hear or read either of them before and I was fairly surprised when I came across them in this book.

First, Edwards states that Lincoln wished an "open road" to be left through Texas for any Confederates wishing to retreat to Mexico. He doesn't state whether this was an official order or more of an unofficial sort of directive.

The Confederates would be allowed to take with them any quantity of weapons, ammunition and supplies they wished to transport. This is the assertion that seems somewhat plausible to me. (Easier to allow them to leave than to force their surrender). Further, any Union troops who wished to follow the Confederates to Mexico would be allowed to do so as soon as their periods of enlistment were finished. The purported reason was so that these soldiers could drive out the French and re-establish Juarez. Edwards says this information came to Shelby indirectly via his cousin, Frank P. Blair.

Second, Edwards states that Shelby received numerous requests sent from Union outfits asking him to wait until they could join him at the end of their enlistments. This seems much less plausible to me. It seems to me that most Union soldiers would have every reason to return home, rather than ride off to another war in another country.

I have no previous knowledge of either of these assertions. Is anyone familiar with such a plan by Lincoln?

Edwards is so commonly discounted that he is sometimes overly discounted.

Nonetheless, Lincoln died on April 15th whereas Shelby did not *begin* his March until May 2nd. However, Lincoln was known to have suggested after the fall of Richmond that it was okay if some of the Rebel leaders left the country rather than become martyrs through treason convictions and executions. He seemed to appreciate that such executions would immensely complicate reunion and potentially lead to endless guerrilla warfare.

When Shelby eventually reached Mexico City he offered the remnants of his command to Maximilian, not Juarez.
 
Edwards is so commonly discounted that he is sometimes overly discounted.

Nonetheless, Lincoln died on April 15th whereas Shelby did not *begin* his March until May 2nd. However, Lincoln was known to have suggested after the fall of Richmond that it was okay if some of the Rebel leaders left the country rather than become martyrs through treason convictions and executions. He seemed to appreciate that such executions would immensely complicate reunion and potentially lead to endless guerrilla warfare.

When Shelby eventually reached Mexico City he offered the remnants of his command to Maximilian, not Juarez.
Thanks, Harvey. Yes, I understand Shelby offered his services to Maximilian. However, my question was about Edwards's assertion that Lincoln seemed to intend for remnants of the Confederate army--and perhaps Union remnants, too--to support Juarez. How could Lincoln have possibly known who they would support?

I have a hunch that some of this was the myth or legend of its day, comparable to the internet myths and legends of our day. I found it plausible that Lincoln would think it better to let some of those Confederate commands go, rather than hunt them down. The political aspect of it is much more challenging to me. And the thought that Union regiments, upon inactivation, might wish to go fight another war is pretty well beyond my acceptance.
 
Thanks, Harvey. Yes, I understand Shelby offered his services to Maximilian. However, my question was about Edwards's assertion that Lincoln seemed to intend for remnants of the Confederate army--and perhaps Union remnants, too--to support Juarez. How could Lincoln have possibly known who they would support?

I have a hunch that some of this was the myth or legend of its day, comparable to the internet myths and legends of our day. I found it plausible that Lincoln would think it better to let some of those Confederate commands go, rather than hunt them down. The political aspect of it is much more challenging to me. And the thought that Union regiments, upon inactivation, might wish to go fight another war is pretty well beyond my acceptance.

1. As you are aware, Edwards reports that Shelby made the applicable claims in an 1877 interview, which were then promptly published in a newspaper. Thus, if Shelby objected to what what Edwards wrote it seems logical there would be a record of Shelby's objections. I am unaware of any such record.

2. Frank Blair was indeed a cousin.

3. Early in 1865 Lincoln was aware that Frank's famous dad visited Jefferson Davis and suggested the war might be ended if the two sides would reunite against a common foe (implying Maximilian) to enforce the Monroe Doctrine. See Davis's *Rise and Fall* second volume pp. 612-618. This seems consistent with Shelby's statement to Edwards.

4. It is also significant that when General Phil Sheridan was in Texas he wired Washington for authorization to attack Shelby, but never received the go ahead.
 
1. As you are aware, Edwards reports that Shelby made the applicable claims in an 1877 interview, which were then promptly published in a newspaper. Thus, if Shelby objected to what what Edwards wrote it seems logical there would be a record of Shelby's objections. I am unaware of any such record.

2. Frank Blair was indeed a cousin.

3. Early in 1865 Lincoln was aware that Frank's famous dad visited Jefferson Davis and suggested the war might be ended if the two sides would reunite against a common foe (implying Maximilian) to enforce the Monroe Doctrine. See Davis's *Rise and Fall* second volume pp. 612-618. This seems consistent with Shelby's statement to Edwards.

4. It is also significant that when General Phil Sheridan was in Texas he wired Washington for authorization to attack Shelby, but never received the go ahead.

Thanks again, Harvey. You've made me very curious about point number 4: Sheridan wiring for authorization to attack Shelby. Can you share some more information about that?
 
Did the Confederates actually serve in Maxmillian's forces? How long did the southerners stay there or did they ever come back to the US?

I know as the Civil War was ending Grant had no qualms about sending the Union Army into Mexico to support Juarez. He commanded a 1 million man army.....mind as well use it to enforce the Monroe Doctrine. But from what I've read Seward was horrified at the thought of getting bogged down in Mexico...especially when diplomatic pressure could easily solve it.
 
JCM395, I haven't finished the book, so I can only answer you in a general way. I'm sure others can fill in more details.
I believe Maximilian politely declined Shelby's offer of service, but offered Shelby some territory near Veracruz where Shelby might establish a colony. Politics and fortunes shifted over the next couple of years and I believe Shelby returned to Missouri about 1867. He eventually accepted an appointment as US Marshall in the Kansas City area and I believe he was still serving in that position when he died. He is buried with a number of his former Confederate comrades in Kansas City.

Other Confederate generals and soldiers went to Mexico, too. Stirling Price was among them. He also returned to Missouri and is buried in St. Louis. Kirby Smith traveled with Shelby to Mexico and I don't know what became of him.
Gen. Mosby Parsons, also a Missourian, and his small party were attacked, captured and executed my Mexican cavalry. There were others in self exile in various parts of Mexico. I am still ignorant about what eventually became of most of them.

It's all a pretty remarkable story.
 
526352a-jpg.jpg

Carte-de-visite taken in Mexico, showing five former Confederate generals who left the United States following the Civil War. Standing in the rear (left to right) are John Bankhead Magruder and William P. Hardeman. Seated (left to right) are Henry W. Allen, Sterling Price, and Thomas C. Hindman.

The Trans-Mississippi Confederate generals mostly went to Mexico, but came back one-by-one. (One of Kirby Smith's last acts, on or about June 1, was to distribute some of his remaining gold specie to his senior officers, to enable them to escape.) Magruder died in Houston in 1871. J. G. Walker went all the way to the U.K., but returned to the United States in 1866 and received a pardon. He went on to serve as U.S. consul general in Bogota, Columbia, and as a special commissioner to the South American republics on behalf of the Pan American Convention. He died in Washington, D.C. in 1893.

It's important to remember that, in the spring and summer of 1865, the fate of the leaders of the Confederacy was really undecided. We know now that even Jeff Davis was free of possible legal consequences within a few (three?) years, but it was hard to envision that happening at the time.
 
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Perhaps it would be the "thrill" of battle that would have compelled northern soldiers to consider going south-of-the-border.

Such is the case with our modern soldiers re-enlisting two and three times.
Never heard of anything like that. But some folks follow wars around fighting.

Even Joshua L. Chamberlain offered his service to the King William of Prussia in 1870, wounded and pained as he was!
http://learn.bowdoin.edu/joshua-lawrence-chamberlain/documents/1870-07-20.html

He always took pride in military service as to him it fitted his ideals of manhood and camaraderie.
 
526352a-jpg.jpg

Carte-de-visite taken in Mexico, showing five former Confederate generals who left the United States following the Civil War. Standing in the rear (left to right) are John Bankhead Magruder and William P. Hardeman. Seated (left to right) are Henry W. Allen, Sterling Price, and Thomas C. Hindman.

The Trans-Mississippi Confederate generals mostly went to Mexico, but came back one-by-one. (One of Kirby Smith's last acts, on or about June 1, was to distribute some of his remaining gold specie to his senior officers, to enable them to escape.) Magruder died in Houston in 1871. J. G. Walker went all the way to the U.K., but returned to the United States in 1866 and received a pardon. He went on to serve as U.S. consul general in Bogota, Columbia, and as a special commissioner to the South American republics on behalf of the Pan American Convention. He died in Washington, D.C. in 1893.

It's important to remember that, in the spring and summer of 1865, the fate of the leaders of the Confederacy was really undecided. We know now that even Jeff Davis was free of possible legal consequences within a few (three?) years, but it was hard to envision that happening at the time.
I wonder what happened to Hindman? And it is a shame that Parsons was executed by Mexican cavalry. He fought the entire war for a bad cause, but still. I think he was the "real" commander on the ground very early in the war at the Battle of Carthage, for either the Missouri State Guard or their Arkansas equivalent. @Patrick H ?
 
Wiki says Hindman returned to Arkansas and was assassinated.
Oh, that's right! But they don't know why. I think he was "mean".
IIRC he was a huge influence on Patrick Cleburne, socially and politically.
He may have been one of those more hateful Confederates. He certainly spread it around. And apparently someone picked it all back up...(the assassin)
 
See "Mosby M. Parsons: Major General, Murder Victim" the second of a two part essay on Parsons that appears in "Confederate Generals in the Trans-Mississippi, Vol. 2." for a detailed description of his murder near China, Mexico in August 1865. The information on Parsons's murder comes from newly discovered materials in the National Archives.
 
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