Shattered Nation-Filling the Gaps

Desert Kid

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I guess I should ask what the opinion of those here is on Confederate populism?

My thinking is, socially it always stays to the right and socially conservative in terms of issues. However, it won't be afraid of being economically reformist or "progressive" when it comes to benefiting the Confederate working class.
 
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Rusk County Avengers

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I wanted to come back to this post. Thanks for your input on how gun manufacturing would have gone in TL191.

Now, how would you feel about this same exact subject for Shattered Nation? The timeline this thread is about, the Confederate States won it's independence in late-1864. The peace treaty was signed in Canada during the Summer of 1865. In Shattered Nation, Utah breaks off from the Union in 1890.

I'm sorry, but I haven't the slightest clue. I've never read "Shattered Nation" and until I do and get a proper idea of the timeline I can't comment at all on what actually happened in comparison to "Shattered Nation".

Can't comment on something I know virtually nothing of.
 

Desert Kid

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Arizona
I'm sorry, but I haven't the slightest clue. I've never read "Shattered Nation" and until I do and get a proper idea of the timeline I can't comment at all on what actually happened in comparison to "Shattered Nation".

Can't comment on something I know virtually nothing of.




Happy reading!

At some point, I'm going to post a revised North America map given Jeff's explanation about the Continental Divide. I will also be posting a mockup Wikipedia infobox about the War of Southern Independence.
 

steve59p

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Happy reading!

At some point, I'm going to post a revised North America map given Jeff's explanation about the Continental Divide. I will also be posting a mockup Wikipedia infobox about the War of Southern Independence.

Just read the blurbs and that 3rd one sounds intriguing with the talk of a possible war between the north and Britain. The north is in a better condition in terms of military production compared to a Trent War scenario with its own capacity drastically increased but after a bloody defeat against the south how is its manpower, finances and willpower? Hopefully it came to nothing but that could be a nasty scenario for both sides.
 

Desert Kid

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Just read the blurbs and that 3rd one sounds intriguing with the talk of a possible war between the north and Britain. The north is in a better condition in terms of military production compared to a Trent War scenario with its own capacity drastically increased but after a bloody defeat against the south how is its manpower, finances and willpower? Hopefully it came to nothing but that could be a nasty scenario for both sides.

In House of the Proud, a war between the US and Canada is narrowly averted when the Fenians are stopped.

Also, 1907 Revised!

Shattered Nation 1907 (Revised).png
 

steve59p

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In House of the Proud, a war between the US and Canada is narrowly averted when the Fenians are stopped.

Also, 1907 Revised!

View attachment 325403

Gods that's an awkward border in the west with that that union finger between Texas and the Pacific states. A bit further north I'm guessing that despite the colouring that's an independent Utah/Deserie rather than a part of Canada?

So it was a worse case of the OTL Fennian attacks that nearly triggered another war.

Probably mentioned it before but still dubious about the south being able to seize Cuba because of the almost certain objections from Britain and probably the union as well.

However that map shows an interesting different N America. Thanks.
 

Desert Kid

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Gods that's an awkward border in the west with that that union finger between Texas and the Pacific states. A bit further north I'm guessing that despite the colouring that's an independent Utah/Deserie rather than a part of Canada?

So it was a worse case of the OTL Fennian attacks that nearly triggered another war.

Probably mentioned it before but still dubious about the south being able to seize Cuba because of the almost certain objections from Britain and probably the union as well.

However that map shows an interesting different N America. Thanks.
Yeah, the Pacific / Deseret-Union border is the Continental Divide as Jeff had stated. Looking at it I should have put what was left of New Mexico in Texas. And Deseret I just filled in with that color. Also, Cuba was at some point going to be invaded by the Confederacy, but it probably won’t occupy it forever.
 

Desert Kid

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I've also tried kicking around the kinds of national symbols the CSA would have.

Personification: Marse Robert, a caricature of Lee in the vein of Uncle Sam.

National Bird: Golden Eagle or a Red-Tail Hawk, distinctly American, but not "Yankee".

National Flower: Either a Magnolia or a Blue Bonnet.

National Tree: Live Oak

National Memory: Lee, Jackson, and Johnston will be to the Confederacy as Washington and Jefferson were before them.

I also suspect a heavy use of Freemason imagery, just like the Union.
 

Generic Username

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If it was up to me, and it obviously isn't, I'd have the CSA remain whole and ultimately annex Mexico once the inevitable succession crisis there flares up given Maxmillian's likely infertility and the influence Richmond would hold over the place; a lot of the regional strongmen in the North were already seeking to join the Confederacy IOTL.
 

OldReliable1862

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If it was up to me, and it obviously isn't, I'd have the CSA remain whole and ultimately annex Mexico once the inevitable succession crisis there flares up given Maxmillian's likely infertility and the influence Richmond would hold over the place; a lot of the regional strongmen in the North were already seeking to join the Confederacy IOTL.
In Jeff Brooks' Shattered Nation, Texas becomes independent, while Mexico isn't annexed by the CSA. In any case, trying to annex Mexico would be a disaster for the CSA. Men like Vidaurri may have schemed, but the Mexican people won't have any of it.
 

Generic Username

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In Jeff Brooks' Shattered Nation, Texas becomes independent, while Mexico isn't annexed by the CSA. In any case, trying to annex Mexico would be a disaster for the CSA. Men like Vidaurri may have schemed, but the Mexican people won't have any of it.

Yes, just throwing in my two cents of what I would've done. As for the Mexico bit, this was the era of mass secessionist movements within it; the Rio Grande Republic, the Yucantan, etc. Richmond and Southerners at large even before and after the war, had extensive colonization, military and economic schemes afoot for the place, with quite a lot of support from regional entities. I'd imagine that, once French support recedes in the long run, the Confederacy would emerge as the main benefactor and would utilize their leverage when the time of Maxmillian's death comes. The Conservatives could find heart in the particulars of the CSA, while the remnants of the Liberals would find the restoration of a Republican regime a favorable development.
 

Desert Kid

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Historically the state of Texas, ever since it's days as a Republic had eyes on New Mexico. That's why I included a rump New Mexico into the Republic of Texas. A victorious CSA would not impede Texas' historical ambitions for the region.

There are major mining interests in New Mexico, and in OTL's 1920's the Permian Basin was discovered which was a major component of the oil boom. Culturally, much of Eastern New Mexico is a political extension of Texas.
 

Desert Kid

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Arizona
To expand on what I said about Birmingham earlier.

There was a similar situation brewing in Southwestern Virginia before/during the war that was affected by the Union's victory.

Big Stone Gap, Virginia. Just across the line from Johnson City, TN and Kingsport, TN and Bristol, TN the "Tri-Cities". Big Stone Gap had large iron deposits and was being looked at for investments in steel production just like Jefferson County, Alabama was.

Perhaps in the Shattered Nation timeline, Wise County, VA and Sullivan/Hawkins/Washington Counties, TN could become the "Quad Cities" with about 50-70,000 people each.
 

Desert Kid

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Arizona
At some point I'm going to have the 1867 county maps for some of the Confederate States ready.

Also, to pick up on that Jones County point I made earlier. A Confederate victory also drastically changes the circumstances of certain family feuds that fell into American and Southern cultural lore. For instance, the Hatfield-McCoy Feud in WV/KY and the Jones-Liddell Feud in Louisiana may still happen, but could be very different.
 

Desert Kid

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Yes, just throwing in my two cents of what I would've done. As for the Mexico bit, this was the era of mass secessionist movements within it; the Rio Grande Republic, the Yucantan, etc. Richmond and Southerners at large even before and after the war, had extensive colonization, military and economic schemes afoot for the place, with quite a lot of support from regional entities. I'd imagine that, once French support recedes in the long run, the Confederacy would emerge as the main benefactor and would utilize their leverage when the time of Maxmillian's death comes. The Conservatives could find heart in the particulars of the CSA, while the remnants of the Liberals would find the restoration of a Republican regime a favorable development.

This is something I touched on multiple times with Confederate victory timelines. The Republic of the Rio Grande, or at least the concept of it, is not stomped out by the Federalists. A potential balkanization of Northern Mexico could happen.

Also, on Confederate holidays. Should I retain the use of February 8th as Confederate Independence Day as it was the day the Confederate constitution was ratified. Or just keep it was February 4th, as it was when the country was founded, as that would basically be analogous to the founders on July 4th?
 
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