Shattered Nation-Filling the Gaps

I was sure Saul was the soldier who beats Forrest in single combat when I first read the book, apparently he wasn't.

I've wondered if Forrest still gets lionized in the Confederacy, despite how he died.

Now in Tennessee, it's a no brainer. In the CSA I wrote (POD is the first day of Shiloh), which has Breckinridge becoming the second POTCS as well, Forrest ends the war as a Major General, and dies of complications of a gunshot received in a duel with Earl Van Dorn in 1872, he kills Van Dorn.

How I imagined it, Forrest remains a more Tennessee/Mississippi-centric figure. Much like he is in OTL. He doesn't get venerated in Confederate nationalism like Lee, Jackson, Stuart, Beauregard, Johnston, Breckinridge and Longstreet. Forrest rather, is the niche Jacksonian, every-man hero of the Confederate Heartland in the Tennessee Valley and Northern Mississippi. He still gets a statue here in there in Tennessee like Andrew Jackson before him. Probably gets some representation in a statuary hall in Richmond or about the major campaigns in the War of Southern Independence in the Confederate Army Cavalry Museum.
 
And another thing, now that I'm on the subject. How would Richmond look?

Would many of the Confederate statues there now still be there in some capacity in TTL? The George Washington statue will be there of course. But I can imagine many triumphant equestrian statues of Albert Sydney Johnston, Robert E. Lee, JEB Stuart, Stonewall Jackson, Longstreet. And many lower level Virginian officers getting busts or obelisks or monuments dotting a Confederate counterpart to the National Mall.

In House of the Proud I think this got teased a bit with the statue of the General Benjamin Hardin Helm (a Kentuckian, commanded the Orphan Brigade and was Lincoln's brother-in-law) being unveiled. It's going to be put somewhere.
 
Now for the typical alt-history question - what happens to Teddy Roosevelt?
He’s still around.

He’s still conquering the frontier of the Dakotas and Montana.

But even with no Spanish-American War he does apparently still become President of the United States in the Shattered Nation timeline. It’s mentioned that the National Park system is still created and being co-ran by the US and Pacific Republic.
 
A better question. What became of Woodrow Wilson?

He was 9 when the Confederacy gained it's independence. One of his formative memories was of sitting at Robert E. Lee's feet during the war while Lee was visiting his father.

He stays in Virginia/South Carolina, or thereabouts, probably still gets his law degree up North, and never becomes the Governor of New Jersey.
 
A better question. What became of Woodrow Wilson?

He was 9 when the Confederacy gained it's independence. One of his formative memories was of sitting at Robert E. Lee's feet during the war while Lee was visiting his father.

He stays in Virginia/South Carolina, or thereabouts, probably still gets his law degree up North, and never becomes the Governor of New Jersey.
I've always guessed Wilson would stay in academia, his nomination as Governor was quite surprising IOTL. Having Wilson become CS President is fine, but it does ignore a number of butterflies. For my money, I had Samuel Spencer be the "Progressive-lite CS President" in the outline I made.
 
I've always guessed Wilson would stay in academia, his nomination as Governor was quite surprising IOTL. Having Wilson become CS President is fine, but it does ignore a number of butterflies. For my money, I had Samuel Spencer be the "Progressive-lite CS President" in the outline I made.
Explain
 
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're referring to.
About Samuel Spencer, the railroad reformist and mogul being the Progressive-lite President of the late 1900s.

Personally, for my timeline I did some of the cliches and had Wilson become governor of Virginia before becoming Confederate president.
 
About Samuel Spencer, the railroad reformist and mogul being the Progressive-lite President of the late 1900s.

Personally, for my timeline I did some of the cliches and had Wilson become governor of Virginia before becoming Confederate president.
I haven't been able to find many sources on Spencer's personality and political views, but his position as a railroad mogul made him seem more likely to be in favor of increased industrialization and decreased dependence on slave-based agriculture.

As I say, there's nothing wrong with Wilson becoming POTCS, but without more information, it can make a TL seem lazy when it isn't.
 
I haven't been able to find many sources on Spencer's personality and political views, but his position as a railroad mogul made him seem more likely to be in favor of increased industrialization and decreased dependence on slave-based agriculture.

As I say, there's nothing wrong with Wilson becoming POTCS, but without more information, it can make a TL seem lazy when it isn't.

One thing the Pro-Davis Nationalists, like Breckinridge and Benjamin, the Southern Democrats in this timeline, would push very strongly for is standardization of the Confederacy's railway network. Remember, in House of the Proud, President-Elect Breckinridge makes part of his goals to connect Houston to Vicksburg by rail.

The Confederate Constitution explicitly barred government funding of infrastructure for economic gains. But it says absolutely nothing about doing it in the name of national defense. The Southern Democrats, I feel, would cite the failures of the Confederate railroad infrastructure during the War of Southern Independence in moving troops quickly, inconsistency in gauges and how badly it got torn up by the Union to cite that in the event of another war the railways should be standardized to the same gauge the Yankees use to keep up with mobilization.
 
One thing the Pro-Davis Nationalists, like Breckinridge and Benjamin, the Southern Democrats in this timeline, would push very strongly for is standardization of the Confederacy's railway network. Remember, in House of the Proud, President-Elect Breckinridge makes part of his goals to connect Houston to Vicksburg by rail.

The Confederate Constitution explicitly barred government funding of infrastructure for economic gains. But it says absolutely nothing about doing it in the name of national defense. The Southern Democrats, I feel, would cite the failures of the Confederate railroad infrastructure during the War of Southern Independence in moving troops quickly, inconsistency in gauges and how badly it got torn up by the Union to cite that in the event of another war the railways should be standardized to the same gauge the Yankees use to keep up with mobilization.
British manufacturers made many locomotives for other countries, and it seems likely the CSA would do this as well. Confederate railroads could develop a very British flair within a few decades.
 
British manufacturers made many locomotives for other countries, and it seems likely the CSA would do this as well. Confederate railroads could develop a very British flair within a few decades.

Confederate railroads operating both American and British made engines on standard gauge lines.

Also, when the oil fields in West Texas start opening up in the late 1890s, it'll have to take private bonds to expand the rail networks that far.

I'd imagine the major Confederate railroads will only extend as far west as Abilene and Fort Stockton by 1899, with only one major line going to El Paso. An alternate Texas-Pacific Railroad if you would.
 
One thing the Pro-Davis Nationalists, like Breckinridge and Benjamin, the Southern Democrats in this timeline, would push very strongly for is standardization of the Confederacy's railway network. Remember, in House of the Proud, President-Elect Breckinridge makes part of his goals to connect Houston to Vicksburg by rail.

The Confederate Constitution explicitly barred government funding of infrastructure for economic gains. But it says absolutely nothing about doing it in the name of national defense. The Southern Democrats, I feel, would cite the failures of the Confederate railroad infrastructure during the War of Southern Independence in moving troops quickly, inconsistency in gauges and how badly it got torn up by the Union to cite that in the event of another war the railways should be standardized to the same gauge the Yankees use to keep up with mobilization.

DK

That would be logical although might they consider going the Russian route? I.e. having the Confederate standard gauge be different from the international one so that if there was a future conflict, in which their probably on the defensive the north would be unable to use occupied railway - or its own railway engines and carriages - without converting the track gauge. If they did do that they might use something smaller than standard rather than the Russia approach of a larger than standard gauge.

Of course if they did take this approach its likely to make developing the railway system slightly more expensive as important locos and carriages would cost more as they would have to be modified. Although a smaller gauge might make some tracks cheaper to construct.

Steve
 
Personally I always imagined a caricatured "Marse Robert" and Stonewall Jackson becoming the Uncle Sam of the Confederacy.

I should also note, in Waco, since Granbury lived, he should be the head of the Masonic lodge there by this point.
So in regards to what I just said how do you imagine Marvel Comics and DC Comics going.

Also I wrote up an alternate universe Marvel Earth known as Earth-153 that centered around the Confederate States winning and a government sponsored/S.P.E.A.R. led super-team called the Hearts of Dixie (comprised of Marie Carlyle/Lady Dixie alternate Rogue, Remy LeBeau/General Gray alternate Gambit, Frederick Johnston Dukes/Goliath alternate Blob, Monica Rambeau/Photon, John Proudstar/Thunderbird, The Crusader/Matthew Taliaferro and Simon Garth/Mr. Voodoo alternate Zombie) alongside the also (United States) government sponsored/S.H.I.E.L.D. led Avengers (comprised of Steve Rogers/Captain America, Tony Stark/Iron Man, Thor, Bruce Banner/The Hulk, Clint Barton/Hawkeye, Natasha Romanoff/Black Widow, Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel, The Vision, Sam Wilson/Falcon, Rebecca "Rikki" Smith, James "Rhodey" Rhodes/War Machine, Scott Lang/Ant-Man, Hope van Dyne/Wasp, Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Luke Cage), the Negative Zone trapped 1960s team Fantastic Four (comprised of Reed Richards/Mister Fantastic, Susan Storm-Richards/Invisible Woman, Johnny Storm/Human Torch and Ben Grimm/The Thing) and the reformed X-Men (comprised of Katherine "Kitty" Pryde/Shadowcat/Professor Pryde, Emma Frost/Headmaster Emma, Warren Worthington/Angel, Hank McCoy/Beast, Scott Summers/Cyclops, Robert "Bobby" Drake/Iceman, Ororo Munroe/Storm, Piotr "Peter" Rasputin/Colossus, Kurt Wagner/Nightcrawler, Rachael Hope Summers/Phoenix II, Logan Howlett/Wolverine, Jubilation Lee/Jubilee, Illyana Rasputin/Magik, Danielle Moonstar/Mirage, Rahne Sinclair/Wolfsbane, Xi'an Coy Manh/Karma and Roberta de Costa/Sunspot split into Black and Gold teams respectively) as they try to stop the anti-mutant/anti-superhuman Purifiers terrorist group led by William Stryker attempting to provoke both countries into an apocalyptic war and violent genocide such as assassinating the Genosha ambassador of the Confederate States and bombing its embassy in Richmond, Virginia (Genosha is ruled by Magnus the Great formely known as Erik Magnus Lehnsherr/Magneto in this reality). Plus Frank Castle/The Punisher and Tony Masters/Taskmaster are S.H.I.E.L.D. agents in this reality, Marc Spector/Moon Knight is a member of the Defenders (comprised of Matt Murdock/Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Danny Rand/Iron Fist and of course the aforementioned Marc Spector/Moon Knight) and Charles Xavier/Professor X died alongside Jean Grey/Phoenix I permantely in this reality's Dark Phoenix Saga.

Most of this you can find in "CSA Superheroes in CSA that won the Civil War"
Link: https://civilwartalk.com/csa-superheroes-in-csa-that-won-civil-war.63703/
 
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I imagine the Old West in the Shattered Nation timeline is considerably wilder and crazier since there are 3-4 different borders that bands of bandits and indian tribes can cross to escape authorities.

There's no James-Younger Gang in this timeline, so who takes their place? The Cochise County Cowboys? Captain Ingram's Partisan Rangers?
 
I imagine the Old West in the Shattered Nation timeline is considerably wilder and crazier since there are 3-4 different borders that bands of bandits and indian tribes can cross to escape authorities.

There's no James-Younger Gang in this timeline, so who takes their place? The Cochise County Cowboys? Captain Ingram's Partisan Rangers?
Plus no Southern accents for most cowboys since some of the Old West settlers were from the post-Confederate States South after the Civil War. The video game series Red Dead Redemption and the franchise John Carter would also be different since the protagonists (John Marston and Arthur Morgan/John Carter) won't be Southerners/Confederates but Northerners/Americans so too would Conan the Barbarian (if it ever exists) and the entire sword-and-sorcery genre since these were written by Robert E. Howard who was born in Texas (part of the Confederate States). I highly doubt there are ever going to be more secessions as I explained in other posts like Texas not being different from the Confederate States ethnically/culturally or the United States clamping down hard on would be secessionist movements so as to prevent another Civil War/Rebellion so I think the author of Shattered Nation should just change his mind and the story.

Care to comment on the Hearts of Dixie Universe/Earth-153 of Marvel Comics that I proposed.
 
I’ve also been under a suspicion that a few Union firearms manufacturers will open up factories and munitions facilities in the Confederate States.

Primarily, Colt. Colt did just short of that during the war selling weapons to private buyers down south that ended up in Confederate hands. Colt is one I can definitely see opening up an ironworks in a place like Atlanta or Birmingham.
 
I've always liked the Turtledove books as an entertaining fiction, with the character of Clarence Potter being a very interesting and at times entertaining character. But as said Turtledove goes completely off the rails historically speaking after 1910 to completely outlandish proportions, but it's still an interesting read.



Also I gotta throw some stuff Turtledove got wrong weapons wise, majorly wrong, I might add. His putting Lee-Enfield SMLE's in the hands of the Confederate Army through WW1 and beyond as a "Tredegar Rifle" is an interesting and in all probability possible thing, in regards to copying British standards, (we'll get into that later), but after that it gets murky and completely impossible. I'll number it and go down the list of wrongs and "most likely's".

1. M1903 Springfield- The M1903 of this timeline would most likely be way different than in ours, as in our timeline the M1903 was "inspired" with some American ideas thrown in by the Spanish M1893 Mauser and Germany's development of the Gewehr 98 after the Mauser designs showed itself superior to the US Krag-Jorgensen in the Spanish-American War. Since in this timeline there was no Spanish-American War, how would such inspiration have come about? Probably not at all. Since in Turtledove's universe the USA and German Empire are essentially allies, and the US had been in a slump so to speak, its probably more likely an American M1903 of this era would most likely be a US licensed copy of Germany's Gewehr 98 of WW1 fame in our timeline.

2. John Moses Browning- I'm lumping a lot guns together in this one. John Browning was probably responsible for more firearms designs and contributions to firearms development than anyone else in to this day. Its impossible to overestimate his contributions. The Colt M1911, the B.A.R., the M1917 Water-Cooled Machine gun, the M1886 M1892 M1894 and M1895 Winchester lever actions, the very automatic pistol operating system in America along with many, many other gun in America and Europe, sprang from his mind. However in Turtledove's timeline, he probably never would have designed a single gun. John Browning was a Mormon, (sometimes Mormon missionary) and Utah native, and in this timeline with so much bloodshed in Utah, along with it becoming a police state in Utah at the time he started working as a gunsmith for his dad, and with gun ownership apparently an underground thing, and the first Utah rebellion happening before he designed his first gun, its highly likely he never would have been allowed to design or build a gun. Even if he had, chances are he would never sell them because the US, a power oppressing his people, would get them, so in all probability none of them would have ever existed. Plus with his contributions to firearm development in Europe, there's a chance guns of the WW1 and WW2 eras would have been more backward without him.

3. The .45 Auto cartridge- This cartridge, the one the famous M1911 was chambered for, was like the M1903 Springfield developed in response to the Spanish-American War, with on of the designers being John Thompson. Without that war, and especially without John Browning to design a gun to fire it, it never would have been thought of probably till at least after WW1.

4. The Thompson SMG- John Thompson got his start in the Spanish-American War with the then new machine gun. He along with John Parker took a battery of Gatling guns against orders and supported Roosevelt's charge up San Juan Hill. That experience, was instrumental in the forming of the philosophy of a hand held machine gun to Thompson, along with WW1 showing him the best type of gun to go for, a "trench broom". Without those experiences, its more than likely to think the famous Thompson SMG never would have thought of.

5. The "Tredegar Automatic Rifle"- Yeah this never would have been a thing. Descriptions of this gun fit an our timeline US M14, and evolution of the famous M1 Garand. Such a design never would have been possible, for first off, Garand was a Canadian, and the Turtledove timeline version of Canada would preclude a Canadian from designing the M1, so an M14 spawn of it never would have happened. Another thing, Garand, was a student of John Browning at one point, so definitely never would have happened without the Garand gas system inspired by John Browning.

6. CS SMG's- From what I recall, most descriptions of them fit in line with the Soviet PPSH-41, PPS-43, and US M3 Grease Gun. It highly improbable the two Soviet SMG's could have been designed without the copying of ideas from John Browning, so that's a nope, the US M3, it may have been possible to exist for it though, but its a big if.

7. SMG designs- In a timeline without John Browning, all subguns most likely would have been based off the German designs. The MP18 of our timeline may have come into existence, along with the Italian designs that evolved from their odd ball gun from WW1. Seeing how the WW2 British Sten was on offshoot of the Lanchester offshoot of the German MP28, along with Italy not being a global power per se, plus them being on the losing end of WW1, along with Britain, I think US and CS SMG's would more likely be offshoots of the German and British copies of German designs.

8. Automatic pistols in general- Without the influence of John Browning, its safe to say if the US decided on adopting a German design would have been likely. BUT would they have existed? Maybe, maybe not. The first automatic pistol was designed by Hugo Borchardt in the early 1890's, from Europe, after he had migrated to the US, worked as a designer for Sharps, and then went back. It's not improbable to say without the conditions of our timeline, this may have never happened. So automatics may have went an entirely different route, the first gun I know of to come out after Borchardt would be the Mauser C1896. Another thing to remember is the famous German Luger was a result of the 1893 Borchardt, and may have never existed without it. Would it have happened without Borchardt and his American experience? Who knows...

9. US decision to adopt a big bore handgun cartridge- This decision came out of a small bore wave that swept the civilized world after the invention of smokeless powder. The US like many countries dropped it smoke belching .45 Colt and .45 S&W cartridges and adopted the .38 Colt in the M1889 Colt New Army and the New Navy. The Spanish-American War's results changed that philosophy. The Philippines was brought under US "influence" after that little war and shortly afterwards the Philippine Insurrection happened. Muslim Moro warriors got drugged up and the small .38 Colt cartridge didn't do anything to stop them in close quarters. However some re-arsenaled Colt M1873's had been issued before hand when enough newer guns weren't available, and the big .45 dropped them like a bad habit. Without that experience, its safe to say the US never would have went back to big bullets.

10 The Lee-Enfield family of guns- In Turtledove's timeline, this gun was the main gun of the Confederate Army in WW1 and used into WW2, and in ours was the British standard in different versions from the late 1880's into the late 1940's. But with Confederate Independence, however it may have never existed. James Paris Lee was a child of Scottish immigrants to America and was trained as a watchmaker. During the CW he turned his attention to designing guns, with his first design being marketed to the US Army in 1865, (no purchases from what I can recall). But if the US lost the War in 1862, he may have never gone into gun design, and therefore it never could have been adopted by the Brits and sold to the Confederates in any version. This is as catastrophic to gun design in general as is the loss of John Browning, because, Lee invented the first practical detachable magazine for rifles. No James Paris Lee gun designer, no detachable magazine in any gun for a long, long time.

In conclusion, without John Browning, and without the seemingly inconsequential Spanish-American War, practically nothing we know of from our timeline would have existed. Guns, cartridges, philosophies none of it. Its safe to say throughout WW1 its more likely the USA would have been running around with knockoffs of German guns like the Mausers, and the CSA with straight knockoffs of British guns, with maybe some Confederate copies of older US designs, like the Colt M1873. The way the post "War of Secession" USA is spoken of, its even possible the US Army never would have adopted instrumental guns like the Colt M1873 due to costs, and the "Second Mexican War" was too early to effect philosophy's into WW1 with some of the mentioned characters, as it was before the some of the great designers got into the business or the invention of the biggest gamechanger in modern warfare, smokeless gunpowder. There's so many things implausible in that department, when the facts are its more likely armies would have been marching into battle with revolvers and bolt-action rifles as their standard weapons into the 1970's, changing tactics and philosophy irreparably in any alternate timeline. Heck without such important people in gun design and bad circumstance, uniforms and gear could have resembled WW1 and late 19th Century stuff for a long time too. Heck the philosophy of general issue camo uniforms, or darker earthier toned uniforms may have been put off for a long while.

Still a very entertaining read though. Also please forgive the length of this post, even with a brief synopsis I put forward not in depth like this, there's still a ton of ground to cover.

I wanted to come back to this post. Thanks for your input on how gun manufacturing would have gone in TL191.

Now, how would you feel about this same exact subject for Shattered Nation? The timeline this thread is about, the Confederate States won it's independence in late-1864. The peace treaty was signed in Canada during the Summer of 1865. In Shattered Nation, Utah breaks off from the Union in 1890.
 
So in regards to what I just said how do you imagine Marvel Comics and DC Comics going.

Also I wrote up an alternate universe Marvel Earth known as Earth-153 that centered around the Confederate States winning and a government sponsored/S.P.E.A.R. led super-team called the Hearts of Dixie (comprised of Marie Carlyle/Lady Dixie alternate Rogue, Remy LeBeau/General Gray alternate Gambit, Frederick Johnston Dukes/Goliath alternate Blob, Monica Rambeau/Photon, John Proudstar/Thunderbird, The Crusader/Matthew Taliaferro and Simon Garth/Mr. Voodoo alternate Zombie) alongside the also (United States) government sponsored/S.H.I.E.L.D. led Avengers (comprised of Steve Rogers/Captain America, Tony Stark/Iron Man, Thor, Bruce Banner/The Hulk, Clint Barton/Hawkeye, Natasha Romanoff/Black Widow, Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel, The Vision, Sam Wilson/Falcon, Rebecca "Rikki" Smith, James "Rhodey" Rhodes/War Machine, Scott Lang/Ant-Man, Hope van Dyne/Wasp, Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Luke Cage), the Negative Zone trapped 1960s team Fantastic Four (comprised of Reed Richards/Mister Fantastic, Susan Storm-Richards/Invisible Woman, Johnny Storm/Human Torch and Ben Grimm/The Thing) and the reformed X-Men (comprised of Katherine "Kitty" Pryde/Shadowcat/Professor Pryde, Emma Frost/Headmaster Emma, Warren Worthington/Angel, Hank McCoy/Beast, Scott Summers/Cyclops, Robert "Bobby" Drake/Iceman, Ororo Munroe/Storm, Piotr "Peter" Rasputin/Colossus, Kurt Wagner/Nightcrawler, Rachael Hope Summers/Phoenix II, Logan Howlett/Wolverine, Jubilation Lee/Jubilee, Illyana Rasputin/Magik, Danielle Moonstar/Mirage, Rahne Sinclair/Wolfsbane, Xi'an Coy Manh/Karma and Roberta de Costa/Sunspot split into Black and Gold teams respectively) as they try to stop the anti-mutant/anti-superhuman Purifiers terrorist group led by William Stryker attempting to provoke both countries into an apocalyptic war and violent genocide such as assassinating the Genosha ambassador of the Confederate States and bombing its embassy in Richmond, Virginia (Genosha is ruled by Magnus the Great formely known as Erik Magnus Lehnsherr/Magneto in this reality). Plus Frank Castle/The Punisher and Tony Masters/Taskmaster are S.H.I.E.L.D. agents in this reality, Marc Spector/Moon Knight is a member of the Defenders (comprised of Matt Murdock/Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Danny Rand/Iron Fist and of course the aforementioned Marc Spector/Moon Knight) and Charles Xavier/Professor X died alongside Jean Grey/Phoenix I permantely in this reality's Dark Phoenix Saga.

Most of this you can find in "CSA Superheroes in CSA that won the Civil War"
Link: https://civilwartalk.com/csa-superheroes-in-csa-that-won-civil-war.63703/

I think you'd see your standard superheroes.

Superman still becomes a thing up north. But I can imagine a Captain Confederacy, Captain Confederacy would wear a suit brandishing a huge Confederate Battle Flag across his chest. Probably wearing a gray kepi hat or cavalry hat.

It's been done before...
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