Shattered Nation-Filling the Gaps

Desert Kid

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Hmm, out of curiosity what gives you that impression?



Well, there would definitely be an economic divide. Six years after the end of slavery in the CSA and the former slaves would have a hard time pulling themselves out, especially if competing with poor whites for work as well.

I think the Saulites are a populist/militant group who adopted insurgent tactics on a small scale over the course of the latter half of the 19th century. So the Confederacy probably had an issue with Saul's memory spurring killings, sabotage, and the like throughout the years. Be interesting to see what Mr. Brooks thinks up.
I mentioned Tredegar mainly because it’s the only Confederate firearms manufacturer named.

I always felt Colt would branch into the Confederacy eventually. Colt sold de-facto to the Confederate army during the war via private buyers like Forrest.
 

CanadianCanuck

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I mentioned Tredegar mainly because it’s the only Confederate firearms manufacturer named.

I always felt Colt would branch into the Confederacy eventually. Colt sold de-facto to the Confederate army during the war via private buyers like Forrest.

Tredegar would probably become a government run arms industry, with factories in Atlanta, Richmond and Nashville. Colt would probably expand, they sold to armies all over the world after all. I think Colt firearms would be ubiquitous on both sides of the border.
 

Desert Kid

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Tredegar would probably become a government run arms industry, with factories in Atlanta, Richmond and Nashville. Colt would probably expand, they sold to armies all over the world after all. I think Colt firearms would be ubiquitous on both sides of the border.

Jeff has hinted that this timeline's Great War happens around 1925, which means that it would arguably be worse than OTL because it'd be more advanced than our WW1. So perhaps the Second Great War happens in the early 1950s, probably ending with a couple more atomic bombs and jets than we got going off in Europe *cough* Germany (maybe).

I'm going to guess that the 1960's Confederacy would more resemble a cross between the 1950s OTL South and 1960's South Africa.

Man I think I'm more interested in his far-off spy novel that has the Republic of Texas in it over his upcoming ones! :bounce:
 

CanadianCanuck

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Jeff has hinted that this timeline's Great War happens around 1925, which means that it would arguably be worse than OTL because it'd be more advanced than our WW1. So perhaps the Second Great War happens in the early 1950s, probably ending with a couple more atomic bombs and jets than we got going off in Europe *cough* Germany (maybe).

I'm going to guess that the 1960's Confederacy would more resemble a cross between the 1950s OTL South and 1960's South Africa.

If/when Brooks comes back to the Shattered Nation series, I'm really looking forward to how he handles things. He manages to deftly weld the disparate characters and narratives of both Shattered Nation and House of the Proud into very reasonable wholes, with each story influencing the other which was magnificently done. That he was writing with historical characters no less made it even more interesting.

Though I think the 1899 story may be underwhelming from the epilogue in House of the Proud I am keenly interested in it nonetheless since his writing always manages to give me pleasant surprises. The 1920s alternate great war with American and Confederate soldiers fighting side by side has caught my attention since the idea hasn't really been done since Turtledove set the meme of the South and North on opposite sides of the Great War.

Man I think I'm more interested in his far-off spy novel that has the Republic of Texas in it over his upcoming ones! :bounce:

I'll admit, I'm personally just excited to actually see the 1960s in this world because I think that looking at the world a century on is fascinating when you consider how much can change in 100 years. I think Turtledove did himself a discredit when he didn't write an 'epilogue' piece for the Southern Victory series set in the 1960s like how he wrote a piece about the 1860s-1880s with How Few Remain.
 

Desert Kid

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If/when Brooks comes back to the Shattered Nation series, I'm really looking forward to how he handles things. He manages to deftly weld the disparate characters and narratives of both Shattered Nation and House of the Proud into very reasonable wholes, with each story influencing the other which was magnificently done. That he was writing with historical characters no less made it even more interesting.

Though I think the 1899 story may be underwhelming from the epilogue in House of the Proud I am keenly interested in it nonetheless since his writing always manages to give me pleasant surprises. The 1920s alternate great war with American and Confederate soldiers fighting side by side has caught my attention since the idea hasn't really been done since Turtledove set the meme of the South and North on opposite sides of the Great War.



I'll admit, I'm personally just excited to actually see the 1960s in this world because I think that looking at the world a century on is fascinating when you consider how much can change in 100 years. I think Turtledove did himself a discredit when he didn't write an 'epilogue' piece for the Southern Victory series set in the 1960s like how he wrote a piece about the 1860s-1880s with How Few Remain.

I always found it a bit cheesy that Turtledove has the Union side with Germany. I think, had things cooled off after a decade or two, a late 1864 victory is basically going to be seen as a magnanimous separation between the US and CS. Both sides completely burned out. The Union may fall more into Britain's sphere, while the Confederacy into that of an imperialist France. Which both at the same time had their guard up against Germany.

That's how I think the Great War in Shattered Nation is going to look. Britain and France against Germany, Russia and possibly Japan. With major flashpoints in Belgium, Holland, Alsace-Lorraine (or whatever it's name is in the timeline), the gold mining districts between Russian Alaska and British Columbia with the North American nations being dragged in. Maybe with the Pacific Republic making a grab for Hawaii.

So British Empire/Canada/USA/Pacific Republic/Republic of Texas/Polish rebels(?) and French Empire/CSA/Mexico/Brazil squaring off against Germany/Russia/Japan/Romania and maybe some Marxist revolutions occurring here and there.
 

steve59p

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I always found it a bit cheesy that Turtledove has the Union side with Germany. I think, had things cooled off after a decade or two, a late 1864 victory is basically going to be seen as a magnanimous separation between the US and CS. Both sides completely burned out. The Union may fall more into Britain's sphere, while the Confederacy into that of an imperialist France. Which both at the same time had their guard up against Germany.

That's how I think the Great War in Shattered Nation is going to look. Britain and France against Germany, Russia and possibly Japan. With major flashpoints in Belgium, Holland, Alsace-Lorraine (or whatever it's name is in the timeline), the gold mining districts between Russian Alaska and British Columbia with the North American nations being dragged in. Maybe with the Pacific Republic making a grab for Hawaii.

So British Empire/Canada/USA/Pacific Republic/Republic of Texas/Polish rebels(?) and French Empire/CSA/Mexico/Brazil squaring off against Germany/Russia/Japan/Romania and maybe some Marxist revolutions occurring here and there.

That sounds interesting and complex. Has Austria been destroyed/annexed in TTL as no mention of that and Germany and Russia are allies. Which I guess would mean the Ottomans on the 'allied' side as I can't see them working alongside the Russians. Could in turn mean that most/all of the Balkan states are in the CP camp, due to both links with Russia and hostility to Turkey.

Suspect the allies would win in the end up would be a very nasty war.

Is Hawaii still independent here?
 

Desert Kid

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That sounds interesting and complex. Has Austria been destroyed/annexed in TTL as no mention of that and Germany and Russia are allies. Which I guess would mean the Ottomans on the 'allied' side as I can't see them working alongside the Russians. Could in turn mean that most/all of the Balkan states are in the CP camp, due to both links with Russia and hostility to Turkey.

Suspect the allies would win in the end up would be a very nasty war.

Is Hawaii still independent here?

It's not specifically mentioned in Shattered Nation. At the time, and with a weakened USA. It is probably still part of the British Empire.
 

steve59p

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It's not specifically mentioned in Shattered Nation. At the time, and with a weakened USA. It is probably still part of the British Empire.


I don't think Hawaii was formally part of the British empire, but possibly this occurs as part of the background of the USCW TTL. In which case its going to be risky for anyone trying to take it from Britain, especially if the bulk of N America [Canada, Union and CSA] ends up in the allied camp.

Thanks for clarifying. That would also add another powerful Pacific island nation to the world Rugby Union events. :wink:
 

Desert Kid

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I don't think Hawaii was formally part of the British empire, but possibly this occurs as part of the background of the USCW TTL. In which case its going to be risky for anyone trying to take it from Britain, especially if the bulk of N America [Canada, Union and CSA] ends up in the allied camp.

Thanks for clarifying. That would also add another powerful Pacific island nation to the world Rugby Union events. :wink:
Cmon @JeffBrooks get those alternate sports teams thought up!

We need to see some Union baseball, Confederate stock car racing and Hawaiian soccer!
 

Desert Kid

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I added New Mexico to the Republic of Texas as a bit of a nod to the New Mexico Campaign book, Blood and Treasure: Confederate Empire in the Southwest by Donald S. Frazer.

Since Texas' early days as a republic it's eyes had always viewed the headwaters of the Rio Grande as rightfully theirs, that mentality persisted during the American Civil War to some extent with their will to annex New Mexico Territory as rightfully theirs.

Given, the Union winning permanently killed that ambition, a Confederate victory would have solidified the mentality in many ways, and after any peace treaty New Mexico would be out of Texas' reach. Well given Brooks' scenario of a second breakup in the 1890s where the Southwest is up for grabs again, I made the Confederates/Texas finally nab the territory. Which after 1899 would be joined at the hip to Texas economically and culturally in some areas.

Eastern New Mexico (OTL towns like Roswell, Hobbs, Clovis, Carlsbad, Portales, Dexter, and Lovington) is culturally and politically indistinguishable from West Texas. Mainly because after the ACW it was settled by many ex-Confederates and Texas cowboys. It also sits along the Permian Basin, which is one of the largest oilfield deposits in North America.
 

Desert Kid

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Anybody have good interactive maps, preferably an 1860 base map of the Southern states with counties so I can make how I felt the 1867 Confederate elections looked?
 
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