Shattered Nation-Filling the Gaps

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Desert Kid

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This thread was an idea taken from @OldReliable1862 and at the behest of another Shattered Nation fan @CanadianCanuck I have decided to create an ideas and a Filling the Gaps thread ala the Filling the Gaps thread for Timeline 191 on Alternatehistory.com to show appreciation and kick around ideas that hopefully Mr. @JeffBrooks will consider helpful.

Before I start, many of the ideas I've kicked around for a Confederate victory scenario, primarily for my "Shiloh Victory" series that never got off the ground due to unfortunate circumstances when I was in college; took a lot of inspiration from several different novels and timelines.

Dixie Victorious by Lt. Colonel Peter G. Tsouras
This book had close to a dozen scenarios depicting how the CSA could have gained it's independence, everything from a Trent War, a successful Maryland secession, A.S. Johnston surviving Shiloh, The 191 Orders not being lost, a successful Gettysburg campaign and an 1864 peace through exhaustion. It even had a successful Cleburne's Proposal. In 2009, the chapter "We Will Water Our Horses In the Mississippi" became the Point of Divergence of my timeline, A.S. Johnston surviving Shiloh. Every possible independent Confederacy shortly after 1865 I feel is shown as accurate in some way, trying to create it's own national identity.

Timeline 191/Southern Victory by Harry Turtledove
I guess no Confederate Victory thread would be complete without mentioning this one. Despite everything happening after 1910 in this series being completely implausible and murdered numerous butterflies, I recently bought the entire 12 book series (a very pricey buy for 12 brand new hardcovers) for a re-read and found Turtledove got a handful of things right. Things like the United States moving it's capitol to Philadelphia, the ending of slavery in the Confederate States through a manumission amendment (although a bit early, 1880, compared to Shattered Nation in 1900), the more-or-less enfranchisement of Hispanics in the Confederacy, a second secessionist revolt breaking out in Utah, and the lionization of not only Lee and Jackson in the CSA, but of the felled A.S. Johnston. But what I found the most accurate and likely was the 20th Century Confederate Army uniforms and weapons. The Confederate Army starts using Butternut/Khaki colors after the 1880s and starts to heavily resemble British and OTL American uniforms. By the 1940s, they look like this:
1557505343440.png

https://www.deviantart.com/goeliath/art/Commission-Confederate-Soldier-787091067

I also found Turtledove's choice of what weapons the CSA uses in the 20th Century to be very accurate, while the United States would be using Springfields and eventually the Thompson. The Confederacy sticks to Colt firearms, and later designs by John Moses Browning and the Browning Arms Company. Everything else in Timeline 191 raised huge issues with me because Turtledove went too far into parallelism, and largely because I don't think there would even be a Second War Between the States after the Confederacy gains independence.

The Black and the Gray by Robert P. Perkins (robertp6165)
Back before I ever posted on Alternatehistory.com, and long after being banned from there, I still to this day miss Robert. He was a dear friend and was the man I turned to while trying to write my timeline. The Black and the Gray, I feel, had a very implausible Point of Divergence over Cleburne's Proposal. But offered many good ideas about subsequent secession and counter-secession happening in Utah and Texas, as well as the eventual collapse of the Second Mexican Empire in much of the same way that Benito Juarez' Federalist legacy eventually imploded 50 years after defeating the French in real life.

Pax Napoleonica by Zach
This was a very creative timeline written in 2008, although the Point of Divergence occurs in 1807, the American Civil War still occurs right about the same time, with most of the same players in 1862 and ends in 1864. Europe is still ruled by monarchies as late as the 1970's, and headed up by a prosperous, Napoleonic France. The Confederacy we see here is still the same old familiar place, but Zach had an idea that heavily resembled one of my own. That by the middle of the 20th Century, many of the economic disparities in the Confederate States will give to the rise of right-wing, middle class, blue-collar populism. Where in which a very hard-fisted Huey Long or George Wallace analogue rises to power. Due to the right-to-work and evangelical culture of the South, the Labor Movement is smothered in it's crib before it ever gets any traction in the Confederate States. The 1950's Sanford Tarbell in this timeline is clearly Huey Long. My timeline had an amalgamation of both Long and Wallace, although I never had a name for him yet. Effectively he was going to physically resemble George Wallace, hail from South Alabama, stoke racial fears and fears of Marxism in the midst of a violent Civil Rights Movement analogue as a global Cold War was happening, and be a fierce Confederate Nationalist. But this guy would also be instrumental in introducing widespread college education and creating a populist "Share Our Wealth"-style social safety net for the Confederacy's post-Second Great War middle class in the 1960's-70's. So two parts George Wallace, one part Huey Long.
 
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Desert Kid

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North America as of the 1907 Jamestown Exposition
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Observed Holidays of the Confederate States of America:
January 1st -New Years Day (National)
January 9th -Secession Day (Mississippi)*
January 10th -Secession Day (Florida)*
January 11th -Secession Day (Alabama)*
January 19th -Secession Day (Georgia)*
January 19th -Robert E. Lee's Birthday (Virginia)
January 20th -Lee-Jackson Day (National)**
January 21st -Stonewall Jackson's Birthday (Virginia)
January 26th -Secession Day (Louisiana)*
February -Fat Tuesday/Mardi Gras and Ash Wednesday (Louisiana/Mississippi/Alabama)
February 1st -Secession Day (Texas)*
February 4th -Confederate Independence Day**
February 22nd -George Washington's Birthday (National/Virginia)**/Inauguration Day (National)**
March 18th -John C. Calhoun's Birthday (South Carolina)
April -Easter (National)
April 13th -Thomas Jefferson's Birthday (Virginia)
April 17th -Secession Day (Virginia)*
April 25th -Decoration Day (National)**
May 6th -Secession Day (Arkansas)*
May 7th -Secession Day (Tennessee)*
May 20th -Secession Day (North Carolina)*
June 3rd -Jefferson Davis' Birthday (Mississippi)
July 4th -Independence Day (National)**
July 21st -Nathan Bedford Forrest's Birthday (Tennessee)
September 8th -Treaty Day (National)**
October 29th -Secession Day/Vox Populi Day (Kentucky)*
December 20th -Secession Day (South Carolina)*
December 25th -Christmas Day

*Secession Day is essentially a state level Independence Day, a state holiday in it's respective state.

**Due to the Confederacy's "restored" nationalism, February 8th is recognized as the legitimate Independence Day by the Richmond government, all public offices and schools closed with nationwide celebrations, particularly massive fireworks shows in Richmond and Montgomery. July 4th is still observed, even celebrated in many places in the Confederacy, but with less enthusiasm, being seen as an "anniversary of a divorced couple". Lee-Jackson Day is a paid national holiday, and George Washington's Birthday is the closest thing they have to a President's Day. Armistice Day or Treaty Day, signifies the official end of the War of Southern Independence by the ratification of the Treaty of Toronto on September 8th, 1865. Thanksgiving is not celebrated in the Confederate States of America, being seen as a New England/Yankee custom. Decoration Day is the Confederate counterpart to the Union's Memorial Day.

Status of non-African minorities in the Confederate States
German-Texans: Exclusively settled to the Hill Country around San Antonio, many of them were forced to get used to the new normal after the CSA gained independence, certainly after the Great Hanging at Gainesville there was much ambivilence towards their Anglo neighbors. Many German-Texans served in the Confederate army, so there was a sense of division in their communities in the years following the war. After 1867, the Texas Hill Country became a stronghold of the Nationalistic "Southern Democrats" with an undercurrent of populists. German resettlement to the Confederacy was sparse compared to the Union, but what little German immigration to the CSA was exclusively to Texas.

Polish-Texans: Settled around Panna Maria, Texas; many served in the Confederate army. After the war's end, family connections enabled Polish settlement almost exclusively to Texas in the decades following the War of Southern Independence.

Tejanos: While not seen as socially equal to whites in Texas, they were able to serve in the Confederate military and hold rank as well as hold political office. Effectively enfranchised in Texas mainly.

Cajuns/Acadians:
Settled in South Louisiana and to the west of New Orleans, many served in the Confederate army, many were landowners who led the secession movement in Louisiana in 1861. After 1865, they were left to their own devices. Because of them Louisiana is far more Francophonic compared to real life.

Italians:
Settled almost exclusively to New Orleans, the Italian community in the Confederacy played a role in the Confederate army. Largely in the Army of Northern Virginia as part of Wheat's "Louisiana Tigers". After the war, New Orleans was the home of the only Italian Mafia family in the Confederacy.

5 Civilized Tribes:
With the independence of the Indian Territory, the western bands Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek and Seminole are free and sovereign in OTL's Oklahoma.

In the Confederacy, the Cherokees in Tennessee, North Carolina, Alabama and Georgia are largely left alone. As well as the Choctaw, Creek and Chickasaw but do face some discrimination for their non-white status.

The Seminole pose a different problem, all of South Florida is still undeveloped as of 1900, the Everglades still holds it's pre-war status of being a de-facto Reservation.

Comanches and Apaches: Centered in West Texas, New Mexico and Arizona, they were a major problem for the CSA and the USA during the latter half of the 19th Century. In the 1880s the state of Texas issued an extermination order against the Comanche, and were largely gone by the secession and formation of the Third Republic of Texas in 1899.

New Orleans
The largest city in the Confederacy, as of 1960 it sported a population of 1 million, it's entire metropolitan area encompassing 4 million. One would note to see the irony of the most liberal city of the Western Hemisphere being in it's most conservative country. Its metropolitan area comprises of ten parishes in Southeastern Louisiana. Collequially called the "New York of the Confederacy", it represents some shockingly liberal diversity and has attracted Italian, Irish, French and Spanish immigrants, as well as sporting a very large and prominent Jewish community. It also sports the only Italian Crime Family in the Confederate States.

Confederate States Presidents:

Jefferson Davis (Independent-MS) 1862-1868

John C. Breckinridge (Southern Democrat-VA) 1868-1874

William H. F. Lee (Southern Democrat-VA) 1874-1880

James Longstreet (Liberty-GA) 1880-1886

Wade Hampton III (States' Rights-SC) 1886-1892

Benjamin Tillman (States' Rights-SC) 1892-1898

James K. Vardaman (States' Rights-MS) 1898-1904

Alexander Swift Pendleton (Southern Democrat-VA) 1904-1910
 

Desert Kid

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Confederate States Presidential Election of 1867
shattered-nation-cs-election-1867-png.png


John C. Breckinridge (Southern Democrat-VA)
PGT Beauregard (States' Rights-LA)
Robert Rhett (Independent-SC)

Confederate States Presidential Election of 1873
confederate-1873-png.png


William H.F. Lee (Southern Democrat-VA)
Robert Toombs (States' Rights-GA)

Confederate States Presidential Election of 1879
confederate-1879-png.png


James Longstreet (Liberty-GA)
Jubal Early (Southern Democrat-VA)
Joseph E. Brown (States' Rights-GA)

Confederate States Presidential Election of 1885
confederate-1885-png.png


Wade Hampton III (States' Rights-SC)
John B. Gordon (Southern Democrat-GA)

Confederate States Presidential Election of 1891
confederate-1891-png.png


Benjamin Tillman (States' Rights-SC)
John Hunt Morgan (Southern Democrat-KY)

Confederate States Presidential Election of 1897
confederate-1897-png.png


James K. Vardaman (States' Rights-MS)
Simon B. Buckner (Southern Democrat-KY)

Confederate States Presidential Election of 1903
confederate-1903-png.png


Alexander Swift Pendleton (Southern Democrat-VA)
William C. Oates (States' Rights-AL)
 
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Desert Kid

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Observed Holidays of the Third Republic of Texas (1907)

January 1st -New Years Day
January 20th -Lee-Jackson Day**
February 1st -Secession Day**
February 22nd -George Washington's Birthday**
March 2nd -Texas Independence Day/Sam Houston's Birthday*
March 6th -Battle of the Alamo*
March 27 -Goliad Day*
April -Easter
April 13th -Thomas Jefferson's Birthday**
April 25th -Decoration Day/Patriots Day**
July 4th -July the Fourth**
August 17 -Davy Crockett's Birthday*
December 25th -Christmas Day

*Post 1900 secession, the Republic is doing everything it can to forge a strong, reborn Texas Identity. March 2nd is dubbed Texas Independence Day because the Republic viewed it's membership to the United States and Confederate States to be completely voluntary, they were always independent. It is treated to government buildings and schools being closed across the Republic with a very extravagant fireworks show in Austin. Unlike the Confederate States and United States, the Republic of Texas is a Unitary Nationalist country with a strong Jeffersonian slant, so it's a tad closer politically to their Confederate neighbors. Electing presidents in the Republic has relegated the new constitution to assign electoral college votes to subregional parts of Texas along regional lines like North Texas, East Texas, South Texas, West Texas and Central Texas.

**Having been a member state of the Confederate States of America for a half century did do quite a lot to the Republic's identity. Despite seceding from the CSA, Lee and Jackson, like Jefferson and Washington are strongly venerated, the American Revolution and War of Southern Independence are viewed as extremely important cultural events. The Republic of Texas does spend money for memorials and grave care for Texas troops that were buried in the Confederacy, far from home in places like Virginia, Tennessee and Georgia. Secession Day post-independence is treated the same as July 4th, both are celebrated still but with not as much veneration as before, and many Texas-Confederate veterans still populate the state and are treated accordingly with strong respect. Decoration Day is still observed, but may be renamed. Men like John B. Hood, Hiram Granbury, Thomas Green, Albert Sydney Johnston, Santos Benavides, Jerome B. Robertson, John H. Reagan and Sam Houston Jr. are the Confederates who receive most veneration.

This is of course partial and not complete.
 
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steve59p

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DK

Some interesting ideas and details. As you say Tuttledove tends to go too much for very close parallel's of OTL events. Robert is sorely missed from some of his stories although didn't his Black and Grey have the defeated union then somehow invading and conquering Canada? [Possibly I'm getting confused with another TL].

What was the reason for Texas leaving the south and for Kentucky joining the south please for someone who hasn't seen the books?

Steve
 

Desert Kid

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DK

Some interesting ideas and details. As you say Tuttledove tends to go too much for very close parallel's of OTL events. Robert is sorely missed from some of his stories although didn't his Black and Grey have the defeated union then somehow invading and conquering Canada? [Possibly I'm getting confused with another TL].

What was the reason for Texas leaving the south and for Kentucky joining the south please for someone who hasn't seen the books?

Steve
In the Black and the Gray the Union and Canada do get into a TL191-esque war which ends with Canada being conquered.

In Shattered Nation, Jeff has slipped to me that Texas' secession from the Confederacy will be the plot of the third novel in 1899. So I imagine oil, slavery and an economic collapse/diversification might have something to do with it.

It's pretty apparent that Kentucky officially joining the Confederacy, Deseret going independent and the Pacific Republic breaking off happened all at the same time in 1890. So I'll put on a tin-foil hat here and guess that the Republicans get elected in a sweeping election and take the Presidency in 1888 after a long line of Democrats. Soon after they successfully push an abolition amendment and outlaw polygamy. A rash of secession threats emerge from Kentucky, Missouri, even West Virginia, and from the Utah Territory. Kentucky successfully votes to leave and joins the CSA. Out west, radicalized Mormons under the leadership of a young Prophet mobilize and seize Fort Douglas, and the armories across the territory, cut the Trans-Continental Railroad line in Salt Lake City and declare independence. Cut off from the East, California, Nevada, Oregon, Idaho and Washington organize with the Arizona Territory and form a new country in self interest.
 

steve59p

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In the Black and the Gray the Union and Canada do get into a TL191-esque war which ends with Canada being conquered.

In Shattered Nation, Jeff has slipped to me that Texas' secession from the Confederacy will be the plot of the third novel in 1899. So I imagine oil, slavery and an economic collapse/diversification might have something to do with it.

It's pretty apparent that Kentucky officially joining the Confederacy, Deseret going independent and the Pacific Republic breaking off happened all at the same time in 1890. So I'll put on a tin-foil hat here and guess that the Republicans get elected in a sweeping election and take the Presidency in 1888 after a long line of Democrats. Soon after they successfully push an abolition amendment and outlaw polygamy. A rash of secession threats emerge from Kentucky, Missouri, even West Virginia, and from the Utah Territory. Kentucky successfully votes to leave and joins the CSA. Out west, radicalized Mormons under the leadership of a young Prophet mobilize and seize Fort Douglas, and the armories across the territory, cut the Trans-Continental Railroad line in Salt Lake City and declare independence. Cut off from the East, California, Nevada, Oregon, Idaho and Washington organize with the Arizona Territory and form a new country in self interest.
DK

Many thanks. So the Texas secession and probably a cascade of other events are going to be set up in the 3rd book which will make it core to the TL. :smile:

Steve
 
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Desert Kid

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DK

Many thanks. So the Texas secession and probably a cascade of other events are going to be set up in the 3rd book which will make it core to the TL. :smile:

Steve
IIRC, he has two sidequels planned that are set concurrent to Shattered Nation in 1864 one in the Shenandoah Valley and one in Charleston Harbor. He has 3 more novels furthering the timeline planned out.
 

JeffBrooks

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IIRC, he has two sidequels planned that are set concurrent to Shattered Nation in 1864 one in the Shenandoah Valley and one in Charleston Harbor. He has 3 more novels furthering the timeline planned out.
Not for a long, long time, most likely. I've shifted from alternate history to straight-up historical fiction for the time being.
 
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Desert Kid

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If you notice on my electoral maps post, Louisiana and Georgia deviating away from the States' Rights Party a time or two represents two things. The manumission amendment could only pass in the CSA with at least 2 Deep South states signing on. Well, I figure since the cities of New Orleans and Atlanta would not only be considerably larger earlier on in the Confederacy, but significantly more important and cosmopolitan, would definitely be enough to make it happen.

It would also be a parallelism to the real life urban/rural divide in those states, the liberal New Orleans against the conservative, Baptist strongholds of rural North and Central Louisiana. And the divide between Atlanta and the rest of Georgia.

Mississippi, Alabama and South Carolina would be basically unchanged. Alabama may still see a population shift to it's northern counties due to Birmingham still springing up.

At some point I'm going to have a whole host of alternate named counties in certain states ready to go.
 
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Desert Kid

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What do you all suppose happens to low tier Confederate bushwackers like Champ Ferguson (a huge suspect in the massacre alongside Felix Robertson at Saltville) and Jack Hinson.

Unionist guerillas like Newt Knight would be hunted down and executed. House of the Proud does state that uprisings in remote parts of Mississippi were put down.
 

CanadianCanuck

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What do you all suppose happens to low tier Confederate bushwackers like Champ Ferguson (a huge suspect in the massacre alongside Felix Robertson at Saltville) and Jack Hinson.

Unionist guerillas like Newt Knight would be hunted down and executed. House of the Proud does state that uprisings in remote parts of Mississippi were put down.
Probably flees to Confederate territory. Those who are wanted criminals will most likely want to get out of dodge like Walker's pet goon was doing when he foolishly came back into Texas.

Some no doubt will turn criminal and plague the West, but others will reintegrate into society as best they can in the new nations they supported.

I'm hoping Mr. Brooks does some more work in this series in the next couple years so we can dive back in.
 

Desert Kid

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Probably flees to Confederate territory. Those who are wanted criminals will most likely want to get out of dodge like Walker's pet goon was doing when he foolishly came back into Texas.

Some no doubt will turn criminal and plague the West, but others will reintegrate into society as best they can in the new nations they supported.

I'm hoping Mr. Brooks does some more work in this series in the next couple years so we can dive back in.
Jack Hinson was basically a neutral who became a Confederate in occupied territory. More than likely he returns to his plantation in the Land-Between-The-Rivers in Stewart County, TN notched up against what is now Union territory.

Champ Ferguson was party to Felix Robertson's massacre at Saltville, and since President Breckinridge will keep at his investigation of it, he now has Roberston in custody, Ferguson may flee west, or stay hidden out in Union territory in the Kentucky mountains close to the Tennessee line in case things get too hot. I feel pretty good about reading "Confederate Outlaw" right after House of the Proud, the man would be basically a fugitive two countries, seen as a villain in Kentucky and a hero in Tennessee and as an outlaw by both the USA and CSA.

Newt Knight's "Free State of Jones" was snuffed out in late 1864, just like historically, but he hung on in the Leaf River Swamps until the Union occupation arrived. That probably lasted until 1866-67 in Shattered Nation, when President Davis and Governor Pettus give Colonel Lowry, who later becomes a Brigadier General, carte blanche to snuff out deserters and Knight in the Piney Woods region of Mississippi. Lowry probably becomes governor of Mississippi because of this, just like historically.
 
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Desert Kid

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Quantrill's Raiders probably disbands, and many of it's members go to ground in Arkansas, Texas and the Indian Territory. We probably see no "Legend of Jesse James" and the antics of the James-Younger Gang in this timeline. Probably nothing recognizable to "The Outlaw Josey Wales" either, seeing as how Wales was based on the bushwacker Bill Wilson in the Missouri Ozarks, who may just simply relocate over the mountains to Arkansas at the war's end.

We may still see many Texas outlaws resettle in New Mexico and Arizona, many of the Cochise County Cowboys were ex-Confederates who gravitated to Arizona during the silver strikes in Tombstone to take advantage of the lawless environment.

Doc Holliday may not come west either, seeing how his family isn't displaced in Georgia, he never moves to Philadelphia for dental school and then never moves to Tombstone. That is the real tragedy here. Seeing as how a Dr. Pepper knockoff in these parts bares the man's name and visage.

1559687381880.png

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/176977460326669640/

 
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OldReliable1862

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Confederate States Presidential Election of 1867
View attachment 306756

John C. Breckinridge (Southern Democrat-VA)
PGT Beauregard (States' Rights-LA)
Robert Rhett (Independent-SC)

Confederate States Presidential Election of 1873
View attachment 306757

William H.F. Lee (Southern Democrat-VA)
Robert Toombs (States' Rights-GA)

Confederate States Presidential Election of 1879
View attachment 306758

James Longstreet (Liberty-GA)
Jubal Early (Southern Democrat-VA)
Joseph E. Brown (States' Rights-GA)

Confederate States Presidential Election of 1885
View attachment 306759

Wade Hampton III (States' Rights-SC)
John B. Gordon (Southern Democrat-GA)

Confederate States Presidential Election of 1891
View attachment 306760

Benjamin Tillman (States' Rights-SC)
John Hunt Morgan (Southern Democrat-KY)

Confederate States Presidential Election of 1897
View attachment 306761

James K. Vardaman (States' Rights-MS)
Simon B. Buckner (Southern Democrat-KY)

Confederate States Presidential Election of 1903
View attachment 306762

Alexander Swift Pendleton (Southern Democrat-VA)
William C. Oates (States' Rights-AL)
Those are good looking election maps, did you use a program to make them?
 
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