Second Manassas/Bull Run


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James N.

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#22
My name is Eddie Longo. I was good friends with the Humphries (I think that's how you spell it) family who lived here in Warrenton VA. I remember the cookout etc It was a big event. I go gettysburg anymore and to me it just doesn't have that feel. I don't like the fact they charge to see the artifacts when in fact they belong to all of us. The Humphries family had an adapted son from South Korea.
My feeling precisely regarding the so-called Gettysburg Foundation! That was one big reason I "neglected" to see their new Visitor Center when I was there in August, though they still got their hooks in me for the admission to the Wills House/Lincoln Room Museum, which is also supposedly an NPS site. I shrugged that off because last time I was in Gettysburg, that was still a privately owned attraction where admission was charged. As a retiree living on Social Security, I resent that having purchased a supposedly lifetime NPS Senior Pass it's no good where I'd like to use it most; but from what I understand, most of the artifacts that were previously displayed in the old Gettysburg National Museum have been put in storage anyway!
 
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James N.

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#23
Do you all feel that this battle if too overlooked? Personally, I think it was Lees greatest victory.
I agree it was a solid victory for Lee, and certainly ranks up there among his best, but I'm still partial to Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville...
Fredericksburg because the victory was so one sided
Chancellorsville because he was outnumbered, divided his army twice and convinced Hooker that the AOP was defeated
The main difference between Chancellorsville and especially Fredericksburg and Second Manassas was that in the first two Lee was definitely on the strategic defensive, limited to reacting to the moves of Hooker ( who should be given more credit for outfoxing Lee at the beginning ) and Burnside, who it was only necessary to blast away at as he was attacking. In the Second Manassas campaign Lee and Stonewall Jackson were very much in charge throughout, making Pope react to their moves. Like ErnieMac says, Second Manassas suffers from the fact that it's now seen as nothing but a prelude to Lee's failure in Maryland, and both take a back seat to the Emancipation Proclamation.
 

Northern Light

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#24
I know you have commented before about the Gettysburg foundation, but are you really aware of what they do?
They have bought up land that is important to the battlefield, their vounteers do repair work and maintenence that is not covered by the NPS, and they are the primary fund raising mechanism for the battlefield. Here is a link that you might find of interest. http://www.gettysburgfoundation.org/45/preserve-gettysburg .
I was never at the old Visitors Centre, but the new one is very impressive. The bookstore is amazing, and there are many exhibits that you can view without paying. Oh and the cafeteria has really good chili!:hungry:
 

James N.

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#25
I know you have commented before about the Gettysburg foundation, but are you really aware of what they do?
They have bought up land that is important to the battlefield, their vounteers do repair work and maintenence that is not covered by the NPS, and they are the primary fund raising mechanism for the battlefield. Here is a link that you might find of interest. http://www.gettysburgfoundation.org/45/preserve-gettysburg .
I was never at the old Visitors Centre, but the new one is very impressive. The bookstore is amazing, and there are many exhibits that you can view without paying. Oh and the cafeteria has really good chili!:hungry:
No, and I freely admit it and encourage anyone to prove me wrong in what are admittedly my bad first impressions. Unfortunately, the link really doesn't help any more than the repeated blandishments I get from them in the mail every so often. And as for their expenditures, much of which appears to be with other peoples' money through donations, these seem to me to be what in other regular financial situations might be considered "start up" investments. Now that the Visitor Center, XI Corps Hospital site, and Wills House are "established" and fully operational, this seems like nothing but a "cash cow" to be milked eternally following the startup costs, just like any commercial venture, though masquerading as part of the NPS Gettysburg NMP. As far as the cafeteria goes, I'm not the only one questioning whether that particular commercial venture belongs there or not, anymore than the Stucky's Pecan Shoppe that once stood across from the Peach Orchard - after all, it was convenient to travelers and had tasty pecan logs!

I recently asked here in the forums if there had been any discussion of the Foundation and received no reply; personally, I'd like to hear more on both sides of the issue.
 

Northern Light

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#26
No, and I freely admit it and encourage anyone to prove me wrong in what are admittedly my bad first impressions. Unfortunately, the link really doesn't help any more than the repeated blandishments I get from them in the mail every so often. And as for their expenditures, much of which appears to be with other peoples' money through donations, these seem to me to be what in other regular financial situations might be considered "start up" investments. Now that the Visitor Center, XI Corps Hospital site, and Wills House are "established" and fully operational, this seems like nothing but a "cash cow" to be milked eternally following the startup costs, just like any commercial venture, though masquerading as part of the NPS Gettysburg NMP. As far as the cafeteria goes, I'm not the only one questioning whether that particular commercial venture belongs there or not, anymore than the Stucky's Pecan Shoppe that once stood across from the Peach Orchard - after all, it was convenient to travelers and had tasty pecan logs!

I recently asked here in the forums if there had been any discussion of the Foundation and received no reply; personally, I'd like to hear more on both sides of the issue.
Okay, here is their mission statement, and their future goals, along with the names of the Board of Directors and their Historians Council.
 
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#27
Me too. Those days were lots of fun. My understanding is that the Lawrence brothers aren't even really involved any more.

You have the advantage of knowing who I am, but I don't have that luxury....who are you?

They are still involved. The GDG isn't as strong as it was but it is still going and the Lawrence's are still around.

Respectfully,

William
 

dlavin

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#28
On my visit to Manassas NP I found that Second Manassas was over shadowed by First. But in a way its understandable. Most of the important fighting that occurred at 1st was in a relative small area and easy for tours. Second was more spread out. Also because first was the first major engagement of the war, many people come to listen about that. But scary to consider how grown up the army of NV became between the two battles....
 

James N.

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#29
On my visit to Manassas NP I found that Second Manassas was over shadowed by First. But in a way its understandable. Most of the important fighting that occurred at 1st was in a relative small area and easy for tours. Second was more spread out. Also because first was the first major engagement of the war, many people come to listen about that. But scary to consider how grown up the army of NV became between the two battles....
Something that helps foster that idea is evident in my thread that's admittedly based on an NPS walking trail that loops around Henry House Hill to and from the visitor center. On my last visit there, now quite a few years ago, it was all I had time for on the morning of my return flight from the nearby Dulles' airport. I imagine though other visitors may not have the time constraint I did, this may also be all they do as well.

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/jackson-at-first-manassas.87115/#post-683290
 

hrobalabama

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#30
It was the "high point" of the Confederacy. If Pope's army was completely destroyed, the South would have probably been recognized by England and France and Washington City would have been open for the taking. I think McClellan sort of wanted Pope to fail.
 

67th Tigers

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#32
take out the words "sort of". Mac definitely wanted Pope to fail
McClellan wanted Pope to succeed, but believed he would fail and that very little could be done to stop it. I think McClellan was probably right.

"two of my corps will either save Pope or be sacrificed for the country"
 
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#33
On my visit to Manassas NP I found that Second Manassas was over shadowed by First. But in a way its understandable. Most of the important fighting that occurred at 1st was in a relative small area and easy for tours. Second was more spread out. Also because first was the first major engagement of the war, many people come to listen about that. But scary to consider how grown up the army of NV became between the two battles....
I think you're right. The visitor center pretty much focuses solely on the 1st. I really can't recall there being anything in there about the 2nd battle unless it's in the gift shop. Now that the Brawner Farm is open there's a better focal point for the 2nd, but it's not to the same standard, IMO, as there's a real dearth of artifacts for the 2nd battle. I was pleased to see that they had an electric light map as well, but it was out of order last time I went.
 
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#34
From conceptualization to operational execution (a classic la manoeuvre sur le derrieres) , I have always thought that this was Lee's model campaign. And if Jackson on the Manassas battlefield had obeyed Lee's two direct orders to advance when so directed in support of Longstreet's attack on the afternoon of the 30th, there is no telling how complete would have been the destruction of Pope's reinforced army. The effects that would have flowed from that battlefield annihilation would have been incalculable.
 

civilken

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#35
I'm kind of happy because my eyesight is not so good I don't drive anymore. My son is going to take me to Manassas Bull Run in a couple of weeks I've really looking forward to have never been there before.
 
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#36
I actually think it might get more attention had it not taken place just before the Antietam campaign. When comparing the events of 1862, Antietam is usually going to get a good deal of attention. However, I don't think this takes away from the importance of the battle of 2nd Manassas. It was still a worthy victory for Lee and his army as the Confederates continued to roll on the high tide in the east until the summer of 1863.
 

jackt62

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#37
During my first visit to Manassas we concentrated on Bull Run 1, which as has been pointed out is easier to cover. For the second visit, we drove to the various areas, which are more spread out.
 
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#38
When I did the first Manassas tour in August, the Park Ranger emphasized that the second battle was much more significant and recommended we see that as well. I went up in Nov and hit the 2nd battle with a fierceness. It was windy as all getup, but to walk the Unfinished railroad and imagine the carnage, Brawner farm where the men of Gibbons Brigade stood toe to toe with a numerically superior force and gave as good as they got... It was awesome. The Cannon in my Avatar was from the ridge where the 14th NY monument is. I must have walked about 5-6 miles, and I took a ton of pictures to include some Panoramic ones. Here are some links for those interested
regular pictures
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...287.1073741846.1455744538&type=1&l=43876d7c9e
Panorama's
http://www.dermandar.com/user/noonanda/
 

James N.

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#39
When I did the first Manassas tour in August, the Park Ranger emphasized that the second battle was much more significant and recommended we see that as well. I went up in Nov and hit the 2nd battle with a fierceness. It was windy as all getup, but to walk the Unfinished railroad and imagine the carnage, Brawner farm where the men of Gibbons Brigade stood toe to toe with a numerically superior force and gave as good as they got... It was awesome. The Cannon in my Avatar was from the ridge where the 14th NY monument is. I must have walked about 5-6 miles, and I took a ton of pictures to include some Panoramic ones. Here are some links for those interested
regular pictures
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...287.1073741846.1455744538&type=1&l=43876d7c9e
Panorama's
http://www.dermandar.com/user/noonanda/
So who was the 5th New York Zouave - a NPS ranger?
 

James N.

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#40
I should mention that a couple of years ago (since my previous posts here) I visited and was pleasantly surprised by the expansion of the park museum and the creation of a new(er) orientation film that lasted 45 min. or more and included as much about the 2nd battle as the first. I'll also make a plug for the film's producer, Ray Herbeck, for whom I worked on Glory and who has done a number of historic projects like this. I asked when the film was over and was told it had been filmed on Matthews Hill north of the Stone House one summer just a few years ago. A movie friend with whom I'd worked on Alamo - The Price of Freedom, Legacy, and Last of the Mohicans, Steve Abolt, played the Rhode Island Lt. Col. whose letter to his wife is well known; and another friend from Glory, Ironclads, and Mohicans, Dave Jurgella, was battery commander Capt. James Ricketts!
 



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