Secession votes before and after Lincoln's call for 75,000 troops to invade the South

Georgia Sixth

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Lincoln is not a factor, the Union is not a factor. This is the CSA constitution.

Now please answer the question.

The Confederate constitution was adopted on March 11, 1861....about a month before the firing on Ft. Sumter and Lincoln's call for troops to put down the rebellion.

So the constitution -- which admirably emphasizes the root cause of the sectional differences -- was not applicable to the upper south states. A great many slaveholders wished to remain in the Union. But once Lincoln called for an army to be raised, it swung opinion to secession in a big way. As a perfect Look up Jubal Early's role in the pre-war debates in Virginia. In fact, just read about Virginia's very public debates during April of 1861. The Confederate constitution was not a factor, but Lincoln's action very much was.
 

wilber6150

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Speaking of Virginia, just what was the reaction to the firing of Sumter when word hit the streets? And what actions would you have a President do to face a rebellion of states that had just fired on one federal fort and had another one surrounded, and were saying they were going to march on the capital?
 

Tin cup

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Those 700,000 were killed because the South started a war that they later lost. You want to blame someone, blame Davis.
There were a lot more people in the South to blame that just Davis...I'd start with some nut cases

I see no proof that Lincoln's call up of troops to put down a rebellion, was against the Constitution...I'm waiting for that proof!

Kevin Dally
 

jgoodguy

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The Confederate constitution was adopted on March 11, 1861....about a month before the firing on Ft. Sumter and Lincoln's call for troops to put down the rebellion.

So the constitution -- which admirably emphasizes the root cause of the sectional differences -- was not applicable to the upper south states. A great many slaveholders wished to remain in the Union. But once Lincoln called for an army to be raised, it swung opinion to secession in a big way. As a perfect Look up Jubal Early's role in the pre-war debates in Virginia. In fact, just read about Virginia's very public debates during April of 1861. The Confederate constitution was not a factor, but Lincoln's action very much was.

That was not the question.

The question to Bama proud was:
Is it not a fact that you took 4 million human beings away from the possibility of freedom and if so, does not your claim of freedom ring false.
 

Georgia Sixth

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That was not the question.

The question to Bama proud was:
Is it not a fact that you took 4 million human beings away from the possibility of freedom and if so, does not your claim of freedom ring false.

That particular question, IMO, was answered nicely by Mr. Hartwell in post #9.
 

Tin cup

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We seceded, or tried to anyway, for the same reason our colonists left England. That union flag was the flag of a bunch of rebels only about 85 years earlier. We didn't want to be dictated to by a king or all-powerful leader. It was and is supposed to be a government of the people. I am NOT for slavery, but it was already in place, and Lincoln used it as an admirable excuse to stop the spread of wealth in the south, and the spread of power. He knew we could afford to buy up western territories, and needed a way to stop it. He first claimed he would only stop slavery by not allowing it where it didn't already exist. But he would do nothing to stop it where it already existed. Of course, that was a lie as he handed down the emancipation proclamation without allowing us to vote on it. He sent troops to Ft. Sumpter, and we tried to allow them to leave peacefully, or they could stay in there and starve if they wanted to. We said we would only fire if they were stupid enough to send in more troops, weapons, ammo, supplies, etc. Well, they did, obviously. From then on, it was never a fair fight. Yankees had everything they wanted/needed. We, however were blocked from being able to buy or sell anything from our ports. And what we could make ourselves, was destroyed, along with private citizens' homes, livestock, and everything else. Sherman should have been convicted of war crimes. And admirable Mr. Lincoln stated that he did not believe negroes were to be considered equal to whites. He didn't believe them to be of equal intelligence, and certainly didn't want them to be able to vote.
So...you traded Lincoln, for DAVIS????
There are just some falsehoods in your post.
Us, We...you are not "Them" by any means.
Kevin Dally
 

rpkennedy

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The Confederate constitution was adopted on March 11, 1861....about a month before the firing on Ft. Sumter and Lincoln's call for troops to put down the rebellion.

So the constitution -- which admirably emphasizes the root cause of the sectional differences -- was not applicable to the upper south states. A great many slaveholders wished to remain in the Union. But once Lincoln called for an army to be raised, it swung opinion to secession in a big way. As a perfect Look up Jubal Early's role in the pre-war debates in Virginia. In fact, just read about Virginia's very public debates during April of 1861. The Confederate constitution was not a factor, but Lincoln's action very much was.

Virginia was gone either way. Either they were going to join the Confederacy or they were going to attempt to form their own confederation with the rest of the Upper South. This was discussed quite a bit in the Virginia debates. I believe Wilbur has posted a bit about these discussions. In the end, unless the North caved in to pro-slavery demands, Virginia was not staying in the Union; whether they joined the Confederacy was another matter.

R
 

Bama proud

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Well, the CSA and its constitution only existed because of the secession, which only existed because the states believed their rights were being denied by the federal government. Slavery was already in place for a long time before the civil war. If the government wanted to end slavery, why did they wait so many years? I would also note that there would be no union, much less civil war, if we had not denied freedoms and rights to the Native Americans here, and pushed our way in and taken over.
So if we are all about making sure we are not taking away rights and freedom, it should be so for every person, not just the ones who aren't inconveniencing us.
You did not answer my question. Please answer my question.

To help you I will quote the CSA Constitution, the fundamental law and expression of CSA political will.

CSA Constitution.
ARTICLE. I.
Section 9.
(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.


ARTICLE. IV.
Sect. 2.
(1) The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.

Sect. 3.
(3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates [sic]; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

Lincoln is not a factor, the Union is not a factor. This is the CSA constitution.

Now please answer the question.

Is it not a fact that you took 4 million human beings away from the possibility of freedom and if so, does not your claim of freedom ring false.
 

Bama proud

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Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Weren't some of those "bunch of rebels" Virginians or just southerners???
By "bunch of rebels" I mean all of us future Americans who left England and decided we wanted to stay here in the colonies, but didnt want to continue to live under under British rule.
 

Tin cup

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Well, the CSA and its constitution only existed because of the secession, which only existed because the states believed their rights were being denied by the federal government.
WHAT "rights" were the States being denied?

Kevin Dally
 

Bama proud

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Joined
Mar 23, 2013
I refuse to continue debating this 150+ years after the fact. Good news is, we can agree to disagree, and I won't come to wherever you live, and force you to either see things my way or be killed. Frankly, I wish we could secede from the rest of the country now.
 

NedBaldwin

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So if we are all about making sure we are not taking away rights and freedom, it should be so for every person, not just the ones who aren't inconveniencing us.

Doesnt that get at the issue in 1861?
As long as they were inconveniencing others, Union was ok;
but once they became the ones inconvenienced it was secession and fight for their rights?
 

jgoodguy

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Well, the CSA and its constitution only existed because of the secession, which only existed because the states believed their rights were being denied by the federal government. Slavery was already in place for a long time before the civil war. If the government wanted to end slavery, why did they wait so many years? I would also note that there would be no union, much less civil war, if we had not denied freedoms and rights to the Native Americans here, and pushed our way in and taken over.
So if we are all about making sure we are not taking away rights and freedom, it should be so for every person, not just the ones who aren't inconveniencing us.

Please answer the question.

Is it not a fact that you took 4 million human beings away from the possibility of freedom and if so, does not your claim of freedom ring false.
 

jgoodguy

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I refuse to continue debating this 150+ years after the fact. Good news is, we can agree to disagree, and I won't come to wherever you live, and force you to either see things my way or be killed. Frankly, I wish we could secede from the rest of the country now.

You may secede any time you wish. The Confederados may a good option for you.
 

jgoodguy

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That particular question, IMO, was answered nicely by Mr. Hartwell in post #9.

I was looking for an answer from a particular poster.

With all due respect #9 does not answer the question. It is a question designed for a libertarian that is extolling the wonderfulness of the CSA republic and its freedom. It is useful to ask anyone that claims the CSA was created for freedom.

It's application to the American Revolution is questionable because freedom in general increased for the 1776 Americans. Some groups were left out for sure, but in general freedom increased. The 1861 revolution meant no new freedoms and a decrease in freedom in general for a large segment of Americans.
 

unionblue

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Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
We

First off, Bama proud, welcome to the forum.

Second, "WE" didn't do anything or have anything to do with the American Civil War as "WE" live in this time and era, not the 19th century. Unless you have access to Sherman and Mr. Peabody's Wayback Machine, you had nothing to do with secession, its causes, or the reasons why it took place.

seceded, or tried to anyway, for the same reason our colonists left England.

No, "THEY" did not, as they made crystal clear in the ordinances and declarations of secession and their secession convention records. SLAVERY was the primary concern that drove the South to seceded and form the Confederacy. This is not speculation, it is the mere reporting of historical fact.

That union flag was the flag of a bunch of rebels only about 85 years earlier. We didn't want to be dictated to by a king or all-powerful leader.

The Declaration of Independence is quite clear on why the American Colonies decided upon rebellion.

It was and is supposed to be a government of the people. I am NOT for slavery, but it was already in place, and Lincoln used it as an admirable excuse to stop the spread of wealth in the south, and the spread of power.

Hogwash. The term "millionare" was first used in the United States to describe wealthy plantation owners and growers of cotton. It was the slave South that was trying to force the spread of slavery into the federal territories and even Northern Free States in an effort to maintain THEIR power that brought on the war.

He knew we could afford to buy up western territories, and needed a way to stop it. He first claimed he would only stop slavery by not allowing it where it didn't already exist. But he would do nothing to stop it where it already existed. Of course, that was a lie as he handed down the emancipation proclamation without allowing us to vote on it. He sent troops to Ft. Sumpter, and we tried to allow them to leave peacefully, or they could stay in there and starve if they wanted to. We said we would only fire if they were stupid enough to send in more troops, weapons, ammo, supplies, etc. Well, they did, obviously. From then on, it was never a fair fight. Yankees had everything they wanted/needed. We, however were blocked from being able to buy or sell anything from our ports. And what we could make ourselves, was destroyed, along with private citizens' homes, livestock, and everything else. Sherman should have been convicted of war crimes. And admirable Mr. Lincoln stated that he did not believe negroes were to be considered equal to whites. He didn't believe them to be of equal intelligence, and certainly didn't want them to be able to vote.

As for the rest of your "we," "us," and your lopsided, condensed fantasy, it seems hardly worth trying to explain actual historical events and causes with a person who somehow thinks he is over 150 years old and actually can speak for generations of dead as though he was actually there in the 19th century participating in those events.

If you want to be taken seriously about such fairy tales, drop the "we' and "us" and join the rest of us U.S. citizens here in the 21st century. Then actually crack a real history book or two instead of channeling others opinions.

Unionblue
 

unionblue

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During the secession convention in Virginia, the issue of slavery was an important topic of debate. However, the members of the convention also stated they would not agree to the use of federal forces against the citizens of a seceded state. The state of Virginia originally wanted to remain in the Union and the secession convention voted not to secede on April 4, 1861 by a margin of 2 to 1. However, Lincoln's call for troops on April 15th changed everything. On April 17th, the secession convention was presented with the response of Governor Letcher of VA to Lincoln's request for troops. Gov. Letcher stated "I have only to say that, that the militia of Virginia will not be furnished to the powers at Washington, for any such purpose as they have in view. Your object is to subjugate the southern states, .....an object in my judgment, not within the purview of the Constitution or the act of 1795, will not be complied with. You have chosen to inaugurate civil war.....". Subsequently, the secession convention voted by a clear majority to recommend a secession ordinance to the public who ratified the ordinance on May 23. Therefore, the reason the secession convention had reversed itself in only a short two week period and voted for secession was in response to Lincoln's call for troops.

The other states of the Upper South also originally desired to remain in the Union. In February 1861, North Carolina and Tennessee held elections for the people to decide whether or not to call state conventions to deliberate and decide on secession. In both of these states, the residents voted not to even hold state conventions to discuss the issue of secession. However, after Lincoln's call for troops the situation in these states changed also. Governor Ellis of N. Carolina responded to Lincoln's request for troops by stating " I have to reply, that I regard the levy of troops made by the administration for the purpose of subjugating the states of the South as in violation of the Constitution, and a usurption of power." Subsequently, a special session of the legislature was called by the Governor which authorized a state convention and secession was approved in May 1861. Horace Maynard, who was a member of Congress from Tennessee, called Lincoln's proclamation for troops "disastrous" because it turned public sentiment against the Union in his state. He stated the residents of Tenn. believed the troops would be used for no other purpose "but to invade, overrun and subjugate the Southern States". Therefore, this state held another referendum and the public voted to secede from the Union in June 1861. As for Arkansas, the secession ordinance of this state specifically refers to Lincoln's proclamation for troops. The ordinance states ".....he (Lincoln) has, in the face of resolutions passed by this convention pledging the State of Arkansas to resist to the last extremity any attempt on the part of such power to coerce any State that had seceded from the old Union, proclaimed to the world that war should be waged against such States until they should be compelled to submit to their rule,.......and to longer submit to such rule, or remain in the old Union of the United States, would be disgraceful and ruinous to the State of Arkansas."

In summary, the states of the Upper South had all originally voted to remain in the Union. However, they believed that Lincoln's call for troops was unconstitutional and was an attempt to subjugate the South. Subsequently, after the call for troops by Lincoln, all the states of the Upper South voted to secede from the Union as a result of the proclamation.

Potomac Pride.

May I then ask you, have you read the secession convention records of Virginia, Tennesse, North Carolina, and Arkansas?

And might I also ask for your sources and references for the above post you have given?

It would be appreciated.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
 
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