Seating the bullet right against the powder

Gibbs

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May 25, 2018
Location
Fennville, MI USA
This is a question on whether my Armisport, or others like it, might have some pitting and restriction near the breech end.

When I shoot, the first bullet goes down pretty easily, and the ramrod nearly falls following the bullet. I check the amount of ramrod left out of the barrel and gauge it with my fingers. Generally 3 fingers+ and I'm right against the powder on the first shot. Now, about the 6th or 7th shot the other day, the ramrod stopped a good 7 fingers above the barrel, perhaps more. Only by slamming the rod down harder did it get it down to the 3-4 finger mark. After that I stopped shooting.

Do I need more or slicker lube on the bullet, or is there a spot in the barrel about that spot that is pitted and causes excess fouling and restriction? I bought this Enfield 1853 used and the guy on Gunbroker said he believed it had never been fired. However, from the pitting in the barrel about 6 inches down from the muzzle and the amount of residue I cleaned out of it before ever firing, and the condition of the musket nipples lead me to believe that it had been shot and not really well cleaned afterwards.

Is there ever any amount of gap between powder and bullet that could be tolerated before a dangerous condition exists.. IE .5", 1", etc?

I noticed this other other day when I was shooting bullets coated with HBN (Hexagonal Boron Nitride). It is a bullet coating that can provide very slick lubricating properties to rifle barrels. About 20 shots of BHN coated bullets in an AR-15 can provide micro plates into the very pores of the steel giving a very slick coating and improving the velocity. I figured it might be good on smoothing out the pitting at the end of this rifles bore (which I can see about 6" down from the end of the muzzle.
Article link about HBN: https://www.chuckhawks.com/hbn_dry_lubricant.html
 
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No, no gap between the powder and projectile.....EVER! I saw a reproduction Navy Arms Murray Carbine get bulged at the breech because the kid firing it admitted he left the bullet about an inch above the powder charge. The barrel is quite thick at the breech end which is probably why it didn't burst.

For your purposes the best option would be to have the barrel sleeved with a new bore. If not that, then unbreech it and manually clean all corrosion from the inside of the barrel. However, if it is too bad you will end up with pits in the bore and have to either replace the barrel, or have it sleeved. All options, other than unbreeching it, are expensive.
J.
 
See prior responses, which you have ignored. You seem to have no understanding that black powder and smokeless powder in firearms are completely different animals :

1. Your lube isn't greasy enough to handle black powder fouling. You should be able to load 100 or more rounds before having hard fouling which interfers with loading.

2. Hard crome plating the bore in black powder firearms doesn't control fouling/pitting; cleaning does. The people who manufacture modern black powder hunting arms would use it if it worked. Civil War reproduction manufacturers don't because it doesn't work and reenactors wouldn't buy the guns.

3. The institutional wisdom among modern competitive pistol shooters is that one should never shoot both cast lead bullets and jacketed bullets because you lay down layers of smokeless powder fouling, lead fouling, and gilding metal fouling in the bore, all of which require different chemicals and cleaning techniques to remove. Since you never get the bore completely clean - even with electrolitic cleaning - guns shot with lead and jacketed bullets tend to be bad foulers. In your case, you have laid down layers of black powder fouling and HBN, which is not intended to be cleaned from the bore. Good luck trying to clean that mess.

4. NO GAP IS PERMISABLE BETWEEN THE POWDER AND THE BALL. Unless, of course, you are interested in blowing up the gun, and perhaps yourself along with it.
 
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You pretty much answered all of your own questions. The gun wasn't taken care of/cleaned properly and now the bore is pitted. It's probably bad down by the breech as well. Not sure how well that HBN would work with pure lead and black powder. Maybe some of the N-SSA guys that are on board here can give you some advice.
 
I do clean the gun with hot water and soap. DID it before I shot it first time and do it every time. After cleaning with hot soapy water I run patched down with 95% EtOH (alcohol) to absorb any left water, then I run a patch down that has CLP on it to help control rusting.

I know that black powder and smokeless is different.

As far as barrel, one could buy a new barrel for 295 or go with the route of removing the breech plug and seeing how bad it is and could it be fixed. OR I could take it to LGS and have them run a bore scope down it.

Looking down the barrel with a bright light I can see the shiny face of the breech plug. I got a .58 caliber breech plug right after getting the rifle so I could make sure to remove any residue that might be left on the breech plug.
Edited.
 
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Back when I was in the N-SSA in the late 80's, the lube I used was 50-50% bee's wax and Crisco melted in a pot. Dip the skirts in the pot and let it settle up. Press the lubed projectile into your tube with the pre-measured amount of black powder charge of your choice and you're good to go. Try that and see many how shots you can touch off before it's impossible to ram the bullet down proper. Bummer that you were sold an Armisport with a pitted bore. You may have to opt for a replacement barrel, which would be cheaper.
 
Today I got in the replacement bullet resizer from Lodgewood. First one I got I ran bullets through it and it turned out to be sizing to 0.5775", not the 0.576" I wanted. I used plug gauges to measure the muzzle end, and 0.579 won't go, but 0.578 will. Dave at Lodgewood recommended using at least .576 as you will soon run into loading issues so close to the bore size if I used a 0.577 die. THAT might make a difference. The 0.5770 bore gauge I have would slide right through the resizing die (marked 0.576) and that along with the digital calipers sort of reinforced each other that it was not correct.

That resizer was not the best finish inside, but did resize the bullet to 0.5775" The new resizing die is 0.575" so should be able to size where I want it. Even if it goes up to 0.576 that's still good for me.

I do have some 2 different black powder lubes. One is Wonder Lube 1000 PLUS micronized patch & bullet lube, slick stuff, and smells like wintergreen. The other is in round tin and is no nearly as "liquid", more wax like, and called SPG. I got it at this link: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1226/1 I smear it in the bottom ring, all the way around. But, after doing a resizing with that old resizer I notice that the resizer ALSO hits the upper part of the bullet above the bands, so I believe I need to be more liberal in adding lubricant to the bullets.
 
Lube and sizing Gibbs. Even with a pitted barrel, with proper sizing and lube, it shouldn't have any issues. Conventional wisdom says crisco and beeswax but I've been experimenting a bit since reading of the changes to crisco in recent years. The results were remarkable and repeatable. I've been trying plain lard smeared on the bullet prior to loading and group sizes shrank in all guns. The guns were cleaned and groups with crisco and crisco based lubes all opened back up and it is repeatable. Now some folks fill the base of the minie with lube, but all that does is send lube on a fast trip to the backstop. Best results I've had and seen, just a small blob in the base, like about the size of a pea. Again, experimentation is the key to solving this with your gun, load and boolit.


As for this blanket statement-
No, no gap between the powder and projectile.....EVER!
J.
Baloney Sandwich. Some gap is ok. Your gun is not going to pipe bomb on you with a little gap. That said you want the bullet to be seated on the powder for best results as some guns shoot better with a slightly compressed charge, but back to calling BS. Sharps. Ever heard of one? HUGE powder "gap" in a properly constructed load. You have the cavity in the breech block AND the cavity between the bullet and powder in the cartridge itself so if bullet to powder gap is a recipe for disaster, then why pray tell do not ALL Sharps grenade on ignition? And yes, I have two Sharps and both shoot rather well. So qualify your statements of "conventional" wisdom please.
 
I do clean the gun with hot water and soap. DID it before I shot it first time and do it every time. After cleaning with hot soapy water I run patched down with 95% EtOH (alcohol) to absorb any left water, then I run a patch down that has CLP on it to help control rusting.

I know that black powder and smokeless is different.

As far as barrel, one could buy a new barrel for 295 or go with the route of removing the breech plug and seeing how bad it is and could it be fixed. OR I could take it to LGS and have them run a bore scope down it.

Looking down the barrel with a bright light I can see the shiny face of the breech plug. I got a .58 caliber breech plug right after getting the rifle so I could make sure to remove any residue that might be left on the breech plug.
Edited.
I do clean the gun with hot water and soap. DID it before I shot it first time and do it every time. After cleaning with hot soapy water I run patched down with 95% EtOH (alcohol) to absorb any left water, then I run a patch down that has CLP on it to help control rusting.

I know that black powder and smokeless is different.

As far as barrel, one could buy a new barrel for 295 or go with the route of removing the breech plug and seeing how bad it is and could it be fixed. OR I could take it to LGS and have them run a bore scope down it.

Looking down the barrel with a bright light I can see the shiny face of the breech plug. I got a .58 caliber breech plug right after getting the rifle so I could make sure to remove any residue that might be left on the breech plug.
Edited.
CLP could be your problem. I don’t believe that works with black powder.
I use Kroil on my black powder firearms. Inside and out.
 
@poorjack - You are "Comparing Apples with Oranges". The Sharps is not a muzzle loader and is far from having a sealed breech with a breech plug, nor is the bullet an inch ahead of the powder charge. Re-read what Mr. Don Dixon said about it. Mr. Dixon is one of the very best shots in the N-SSA and knows what he is talking about.
J.
 
Lube and sizing Gibbs. Even with a pitted barrel, with proper sizing and lube, it shouldn't have any issues. Conventional wisdom says crisco and beeswax but I've been experimenting a bit since reading of the changes to crisco in recent years. The results were remarkable and repeatable. I've been trying plain lard smeared on the bullet prior to loading and group sizes shrank in all guns. The guns were cleaned and groups with crisco and crisco based lubes all opened back up and it is repeatable. Now some folks fill the base of the minie with lube, but all that does is send lube on a fast trip to the backstop. Best results I've had and seen, just a small blob in the base, like about the size of a pea. Again, experimentation is the key to solving this with your gun, load and boolit.


As for this blanket statement-

Baloney Sandwich. Some gap is ok. Your gun is not going to pipe bomb on you with a little gap. That said you want the bullet to be seated on the powder for best results as some guns shoot better with a slightly compressed charge, but back to calling BS. Sharps. Ever heard of one? HUGE powder "gap" in a properly constructed load. You have the cavity in the breech block AND the cavity between the bullet and powder in the cartridge itself so if bullet to powder gap is a recipe for disaster, then why pray tell do not ALL Sharps grenade on ignition? And yes, I have two Sharps and both shoot rather well. So qualify your statements of "conventional" wisdom please.
Wow. Careful. Not too good a way to ask for help. You are wrong on the powder to bullet in a sharps rifle. The bullet is pressed against wad or the powder which ever you use.
I always used a wad made from 1/32 gasket material and pressed the bullet against that wad down against the powder making sure there was no free space at all in a 45/70 rifle
Cartridge. That is an attempt to burn all the powder from the shell.
 
Wow. Careful. Not too good a way to ask for help. You are wrong on the powder to bullet in a sharps rifle. The bullet is pressed against wad or the powder which ever you use.
I always used a wad made from 1/32 gasket material and pressed the bullet against that wad down against the powder making sure there was no free space at all in a 45/70 rifle
Cartridge. That is an attempt to burn all the powder from the shell.

Not asking for help on this board and sometimes I get miffed by people posting inaccurate information. And Reb, you are simply wrong.

I shoot NSSA competition meaning I live fire Civil War era guns for both speed and accuracy. I use Hahns tubes in both my repop 1863 Sharps carbines. There is NO wad and NO filler needed when using his tubes and the bullet is NOT pressed against the powder in Hahns tubes. Following Charlie's instructions, the tube is closed at one end with haircurler paper or similar, charge added, another haircurler paper is inserted into the tube to hold the powder against the back (breechblock) of the tube and ringtail bullet is glued to the tube. Very easy and yes, there is an air gap between the bullet and powder. That gap can vary as the chamber dimensions of the repops and originals vary quite a bit. To be fair here, this is not an "authentic" Sharps paper cartridge to be sheared. Add to that the fact that the Sharps has a cavity in the breech block that is not filled with powder even when using original style paper cartridges that are sheared off when closing and the whole "no air gap" thing is proved to be blown out of proportion. And yes, both of my Sharps will shoot better than any other carbine I have other than my musketoon. Both my Sharps and my musketoon can shoot one hole groups at 50yds. Sharps load is standard 475gr Christmas tree bullet, hahns tubes, 44gr 3f OE, RWS caps, lard lube. Musketoon is Hogdon minie, 42gr 3f OE, RWS caps, lard lube, Whitacre barrel. But back to the Hahn tubes, they also have the advantage because of the "no shear" design in that the small amount of powder that is inevitably lost in shearing is not laying loose on the gun. In the original Sharps and with some repops, that loose powder from shearing can work it's way under the wood of the forearm and later ignite blowing the forearm off and generally causing some mayhem. I firmly believe that may well be the cause of some of the "blown up" gun stories. Think operator error coupled with original design flaw.

Cartridge guns are another world, I also shoot 45/70 and it really depends on your powder charge, among other variables, as to if and when a wad and/or grease cookie is used or needed. Add to that paper patching, boolit design and that pond gets muddy almost instantly.

My initial point still stands. Lots of guys will post conventional wisdom gained only through internet or reading. Hang with people who actually shoot these guns live for score and against the clock and you'll find that conventional wisdom isn't all that accurate. Before diving into the Sharps world, I burned quite a bit of cell and face time with Charlie Hahn and Larry Flees (both acknowledged live fire percussion Sharps experts in the NSSA and in the black powder world). Both recommended the paper tube method Charlie developed. Both recommend against any filler. Both say there is an air gap at either end in a Sharps as a result (but that's a no brainer if you look at a breech block). Both recommend a bullet that is .005 over bore. Nobody has been blown up by the "air gaps" in a Sharps following their recommendations. I know I haven't had a Sharps blow up in my face by following their advice and both my Sharps are "tack drivers". Now to further muddy the waters, there is a device for "speed" loading a Sharps that doesn't use paper. It's a suction device that allows the shooter to breech seat the bullet, then turning it around dumps the powder in the chamber loose. Imagine the air gap with that one! But it does work and no Sharps has grenaded on anybody using it. I don't use it because it's one more thing to keep up with on the firing line in competition and because it has two loading motions vs one. It's slower and in NSSA competition, anything that can safely be done to speed up is a benefit. Now couple either the Hahn or Flees breech block modification with the Hahn tubes and you can shoot a Sharps for nearly 100rds if you want without it freezing up from fouling. I wouldn't personally advise doing the mod to an original, but both Charlie and Larry's method simply work and eliminate a problem the original never completely solved.
 
"Not asking for help on this board and sometimes I get miffed by people posting inaccurate information. And Reb, you are simply wrong."

OK, do this for me. Put my name as beneficiary on your life insurance. PM me and I'll furnish an address.
I say no more about it.
The line I quoted above is as far I have read. Be safe.
 
Yes, you did ask for help. Here is your #1 post.
------------------------------------------------------------
"This is a question on whether my Armisport, or others like it, might have some pitting and restriction near the breech end.

When I shoot, the first bullet goes down pretty easily, and the ramrod nearly falls following the bullet. I check the amount of ramrod left out of the barrel and gauge it with my fingers. Generally 3 fingers+ and I'm right against the powder on the first shot. Now, about the 6th or 7th shot the other day, the ramrod stopped a good 7 fingers above the barrel, perhaps more. Only by slamming the rod down harder did it get it down to the 3-4 finger mark. After that I stopped shooting.

Do I need more or slicker lube on the bullet, or is there a spot in the barrel about that spot that is pitted and causes excess fouling and restriction? I bought this Enfield 1853 used and the guy on Gunbroker said he believed it had never been fired. However, from the pitting in the barrel about 6 inches down from the muzzle and the amount of residue I cleaned out of it before ever firing, and the condition of the musket nipples lead me to believe that it had been shot and not really well cleaned afterwards.

Is there ever any amount of gap between powder and bullet that could be tolerated before a dangerous condition exists.. IE .5", 1", etc?


I noticed this other other day when I was shooting bullets coated with HBN (Hexagonal Boron Nitride). It is a bullet coating that can provide very slick lubricating properties to rifle barrels. About 20 shots of BHN coated bullets in an AR-15 can provide micro plates into the very pores of the steel giving a very slick coating and improving the velocity. I figured it might be good on smoothing out the pitting at the end of this rifles bore (which I can see about 6" down from the end of the muzzle.
Article link about HBN: https://www.chuckhawks.com/hbn_dry_lubricant.html"
 
@poorjack - You are "Comparing Apples with Oranges". The Sharps is not a muzzle loader and is far from having a sealed breech with a breech plug, nor is the bullet an inch ahead of the powder charge. Re-read what Mr. Don Dixon said about it. Mr. Dixon is one of the very best shots in the N-SSA and knows what he is talking about.
J.

Jobe- your initial post is a blanket statement not differentiating between muzzle and breech, that's what I'm referring to. Many noobs will take that info and apply it to all black powder and wonder why they can't get accurate results.

In the case of a muzzle loader, yes, seating the bullet against the powder charge is the proper and safe way to shoot a muzzle loader BUT, if there is a slight gap, it won't transform your gun into a should held pipe bomb. It will however, degrade accuracy. The distance of the powder gap is the issue. What Gibbs was describing, while degrading accuracy, may well still be safe and within proof limits of the gun and he does have an issue to be resolved. In my competition musket (1862 Colt Contract) I have developed a load/lube combo that I can shoot twenty+ rounds with no issues in loading. My first round will drop to the breech with virtually no pressure other than ramrod weight. After the first two shots, they all go down the same with the same effort (not a lot) meaning my fouling is under control, the bullet is the right size and the right powder charge/type is being used, all with no appreciable loss of accuracy.

Now let's deepen this kettle of fish. There are guys who are so afraid of that tiny gap, they'll pile drive their minie into the breech by slamming the ramrod repeatedly down onto the bullet. I've seen Utube "experts" do it and some NSSA competitors do it. From an NSSA perspective, it's slow and it deforms the bullet nose. Both are not conducive to accuracy nor speed. From an historic perspective, I can't find anywhere in Hardee's that it's the "official" or "authentic" way to load. If you're having to pound that minie in, something's wrong somewhere and that needs to be addressed. Not every problem is a nail, nor every tool a hammer.
 
From an historic perspective, I can't find anywhere in Hardee's that it's the "official" or "authentic" way to load.
Hardee's is a drill book and It is simply not the goal of the book to teach marksmanship. The success criteria is getting the soldier to fire the gun at the right time.

In the pre war army the dill was suppose to be supported by actual training in marksmanship.
Training where you learned to load properly, Learned to maintain the weapon, learned to judge distance and that you need to set the sights on that distance.
 
they'll pile drive their minie into the breech by slamming the ramrod repeatedly down onto the bullet. I've seen Utube "experts" do it and some NSSA competitors do it.

I quoted you because that was pretty close to describing how I managed to get my last round loaded of my shooting for that day. I could see that I was way above where the bullet needed to be seated, and it needed seated, ACCORDING to the ramrod depth, or rather that of it still sticking out of the muzzle, deeper into the barrel. I got the ramrod/bullet down to where it normally is when loading and fired my last round successfully IE not explosion. :smile:

Now here's the thing, Jack (and others) I was using straight Hexagonal Boron Nitride as my only lubricant. VERY slick but it's a dry lube. In the list of dry lubes you have powdered graphite, then better for lube is molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) (also known as molly) used in grease and some bullet lubes is better. And then there is HBN which is superior to the other two. Also leaves a white residue that I can wash off. Ever try to wash molybdenum disulfide off a kitchen table? Not easy as it like to stay gray and hard to remove, only with much elbow grease.

Anyway, back to the shooting. HBN has wonderful lubricating properties, does not contribute to bore dimensions, nor is corrosive and can withstand high temperatures. I was using this for the bullets this day... no other lube, no lard or other.

One thing people posting here makes me do... a bit more research. I found out that when black powder burns, it produces 0% water residue. About half of the grains produce dry residue in weight POST burning. They took black powder, and measured x grams into 10 tin pans and ignited it, and then weighed it. Then they desiccated it in an oven and reweighed the mass. Turns out during ignition and burning that there really is no moisture in burned black powder, BUT depending on the relative humidity AND time, the air that rushed back into the barrel from shooting will combine with the black powder since it hygroscopic and the resulting salt residues, from the Black Powder, contribute to corrosion and rust of ferrous metals (iron). NOTE: RWS percussion caps are non-corrosive since they use a compound called SINOXID.
LINK to article of above info... VERY informative. http://www.cherrytreefamily.com/blackpowderhistory.htm


I think I had encountered where the burned black powder residue, not being moistened by lube, such as lard, became hard to overcome with a bullet that was cast to too close to the bore size. My bore is .578" About what the bullets are, 0.577" THAT combination of a very tight bullet to bore diameter probably did contribute to hard seating of the bullet after the 6-7th shot.

Resizer came in yesterday and I resized some Lyman OS bullets I have last night BOY!! I did not realize how much sizing was needed!!! Above the rings, where I call the body of the bullet, there was significant ring marks around the bullet where the sizing die re-sized those bullets, along with fresh shiny areas on the bottom skirt and some of the rings above.

I am guessing with soft lube, such as LARD as was suggested, or even my other greasy lube AND these newly sized bullets that loading would be improved.



NOW, just for clarification. WHEN I asked about gap between bullet and powder I recognize and realize that for best accuracy, and protocol, the bullet is very firmly seated against the black powder. What I was cuirous to know, is if there were a gap of 0.020 to say 0.3" between powder and bullet if it was still safe? I think 1" is more than I would feel comfortable with, and even 1/2" is a bit much in my opinion, but then, maybe not. It can't be excessive, but my main question is IF I see that I'm about .2 to .3 inch more ramrod sticking out, whether it is still safe to fire, or do I concentrate on tamping that bullet down a bit further, either with dropping the ramrod or tapping the ramrod with a wooden block?

I''ll post pictures of the un-sized and newly sized bullets when I get a chance. It is really quite educational.

I'll get some lard to try.
 
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I would suggest to anyone here on CWT to attend the N-SSA Fall National event at Ft. Shenandoah in Winchester. It's usually the first week in October. It's worth the trip. Back in the late 80's I was in the 7th Regt VA Vols., Potomac Region. The commander of our region was A.C. Baird, who was also a member of our 7th VA. Also within our ranks of the 7th was the well known author of several firearms books, John D. MacAuley. Sadly, A.C. passed away two summers ago. He was one of the most beloved members of the N-SSA for decades. I'm not aware if John is still around. I sure learned a lot from both of these men.
 
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