Saltville Massacre Oct. 1864


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diane

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#62
Error: Refused to accept the surrender of black soldiers at Ft. Pillow.
Fact: Included them in the surrender terms Bradford declined.

Error: He ran a railroad and bankrupted it.
Fact: Some of the towns who bought bonds to build Forrest's railroad stiffed him - he was winning the lawsuits he brought against them but stopped them as he was dying and didn't want his family to have the burden after his death.

Error: ...(S)pawning Forrest City, Arkansas...
Fact: Forrest founded and built Forrest City on property he had acquired in Arkansas for plantations but had not cleared before the war. The town was for his railroad workers.

Error: Ran a prison.
Fact: Leased farmland on the relatively undeveloped President's Island and hired hands from the prison. He was never a prison warden, or had anything to do with the prison except to hire help from it.

Well, there's four factual errors!
 

larry_cockerham

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#63
Error: Refused to accept the surrender of black soldiers at Ft. Pillow.
Fact: Included them in the surrender terms Bradford declined.

Error: He ran a railroad and bankrupted it.
Fact: Some of the towns who bought bonds to build Forrest's railroad stiffed him - he was winning the lawsuits he brought against them but stopped them as he was dying and didn't want his family to have the burden after his death.

Error: ...(S)pawning Forrest City, Arkansas...
Fact: Forrest founded and built Forrest City on property he had acquired in Arkansas for plantations but had not cleared before the war. The town was for his railroad workers.

Error: Ran a prison.
Fact: Leased farmland on the relatively undeveloped President's Island and hired hands from the prison. He was never a prison warden, or had anything to do with the prison except to hire help from it.

Well, there's four factual errors!
along with the facts..... Yes, there are long threads on this forum describing most of these events and the resulting discussion in considerable detail. In most cases, the facts are obvious. Someone, I won't mention names, just for the umpteenth time compared the klan in which Forrest was involved to the successor organization. Not fair at all. They really had little to nothing in common.
 

K Hale

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#64
Lets account for the twenty men he killed... I bet not all were in the heat of battle...
Name the ones who weren't and we'll decide.

What's with the vague insinuations? If there's a problem, be specific about what it was and we'll all decide what we think.
 

matthew mckeon

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#65
If you're interested in Fort Pillow, there is an exhaustive, but excellent thread on the subject in the South & Western part of the forum. It's really good and goes into some of the issues brought up here as well as an indepth discussion of Forrest and the Ft. Pillow massacre. Is there more information about Saltville?
 
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#66
And you got this where? And how in heaven's name is stuff that happens AFTER SOMEONE IS DEAD SELF-PROMOTION? Honestly? So Washington is guilty because there's a huge obelisk in the middle of the mall? And Jefferson, Lincoln, Grant.......the list can go on and on. Unless he sculpted the darned thing himself and stuck it somewhere, that's the most inane thing I've ever heard.

Unbelievable... git him Nate
 
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#67
Fort Gregg, Petersburg, Virginia, April 2, 1865. Portions of the 16th and 12th Mississippi, Brig. Gen J. Lane's North Carolina, one rifled cannon manned by the New Orleans Washington Artillery, and one rifled cannon manned by the 4th Maryland Artillery, a total of 214 men, were asked to man Fort Gregg. The time was urgent. Robert E. Lee and his army was about to be destroyed and they needed the men at Fort Gregg to hold of the Union army for two hours to allow General Lee to escape with his army intact. What faced the Mississippians that day were nearly 8000 union assault troops and heavy artillery. Fort Gregg held out for three hours against four heavy assaults. When finally the Union troops surrounded the fort and climbed over it's walls. Then there was another 30 minutes of savage hand to hand fighting in which all manor of weapons were used from bayonets and clubbing rifles to bricks gathered form chimneys toppled by artillery fire. Finally the Confederates surrendered. Inside the fort lay 55 dead Confederates, nearly 40 forty being killed after they surrendered, 129 wounded. Only 30 Confederates survived any injuries. Outside the fort nearly 700 Union troops lay dead or wounded. General Lee and his army (which included the rest of the 16th Mississippi) escaped to Appomattox Court House.
In the heat of a very hotly contested battle many men are killed after surrender. This was a fact of war throughout the centuries and it is always a bitter subject that many people refuse to acknowledge.
As a researcher of Saltville, the records of the USCT troops enguaged initally show major unexplained losses, but after the return of the unit to bases in Tennessee many of the "massacred" troops returned, having not been killed but simply abandoned by Burbridge in his haste to retreat. There were black troops shot down trying to surrender, but not as many as originally reported in the Northern press.
 
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#68
Is there more information about Saltville?

See the Saltville portion of the Lead , salt and the fight for soutwest virginia thread. I believe that the most current studies show that 46 men were murdered at Saltville.
 

diane

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#69
1SGDan,

I've been hoping you'd comment on this thread! I'd very highly recommend your article on Lead and Salt - there is considerable background to be found there which would help to determine what exactly happened at Saltville and why it happened. (That is one problem in discussing these incidents as separate - the backgrounds to them are essential for understanding what happened and why.)
 

sf46

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#70
Whoa, who is you guys? I've got nothing against Forrest. I think you may not have been responding to me, but just wanted to make that clear.
No, Hale, not saying necessarily you personally. Just saying some folks on this board throwing out the generalization that a lot of statements made by folks with a southern point of view are nothing but hate and venom. In a majority of those cases, I'd disagree, but have seen one or two where it might have been true. Basically I'm just pointing out that other view points are capable of hate and venom.
 

sf46

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#71
Geez Fish, why is it that you have such a hard on for Forrest? If someone didn't know any better, they'd think that the man personally wronged you in some way. That blog you quoted has an overwhelming anti-Forrest slant to the wording. Whether anything in it is true or lies, the bias evident in the writing style negates its value.
 

Borderruffian

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#73
Geez Fish, why is it that you have such a hard on for Forrest? If someone didn't know any better, they'd think that the man personally wronged you in some way. That blog you quoted has an overwhelming anti-Forrest slant to the wording. Whether anything in it is true or lies, the bias evident in the writing style negates its value.
It always ends up with NBF being compared to W.C. Quantrill .......always.
 
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#74
Members of the 5th USCC Listed as Missing in Action
After the Battle of Saltville (10/2/64)
and Still Unaccounted for in 1866*
(Presumed to Have Been Murdered By Confederate Troops)
Last Name First Name Co. Comments
Anderson+ Jefferson M
Baker+ William E
Bedford# Henry K
Black+ Joseph B
Blackmore# Peter K
Bradford# Frank G
Brown+ Jefferson E
Brown+ Lewis C/D?
Browning# Henry K
Chinn# John K
Cissell Charles C
Cissell William C
Clay+ John B KIA Marion (Descp. Roll)
Clay# George G
Clay# John Will K
Crutcher+ Andrew B
Downing# Henry K
Dunn+ William M
Dunston+ Noah B
Finch+ Peter H KIA Saltville (Descp.Roll)
Fox+ Wiley H KIA Saltville (Descp. Roll)+
Garry+ William H KIA Saltville (Descp. Roll)+
Gordon+ Phillip H Died General Hospital—11/18/1864 (Descp. Roll)
Griffen# Perry G
Grigsby+ Richard M
Grigsby+ George K
Hammond# George F
Harriman# Jackson G
Harris+ Samuel E
Harrison+ Samuel G
Hicks+ David B Died at Saltville of Gunshot Wounds (Descp. Roll)
Hunter+ John M KIA, Harrodsburg, KY (Descp. Roll)
Jackson+ Thomas M
James+ James M
Jefferson# Andrew K
Johnston+ Benjamin M
Leach/Lirch/Leich+ Julius B
Lewis+ George B
Lewis James B, 6th USCC
Martin William E
Martin+ Zachariah M
Mason+ Robert M Returned from MIA (Descp. Roll)+
Massey+ Joseph M
Miller+ Samuel/Saul D
Money# Joseph K
Neal # Dudley F
Robinson# Samuel F
Scott+ King M
Scott+ Lowrie M
Seals+ Alexander E MIA Simpsonville (Descp. Roll)
Simpson+ Isiah M
Sloan/Slown+ Thomas E
Smith# John F
Smithson+ James E
Taylor# James F
Thomas+ Grant E
Thompson Albert E
Tutt/Trott+ Peter D
Williams# James G

*In the appendix of his book, The Saltville Massacre, Thomas Mays' lists the names of just over one hundred men that were still listed as missing in action (MIA) on the 5th USCC's muster rolls when the regiment was mustered out of service in 1866. Mays did not identify which of these men were missing in action after the Battle of Saltville, though he was able to determine that forty-six of these men were missing following that fierce engagement. On April 17, 1998, I reviewed the original muster rolls of the 5th USCC at the National Archives in Washington D.C. and was able to verify that the thirty-nine men from Mays' list, were missing after the Battle of Saltville. A subsequent visit to the National Archives and an examination of the Adjutant’s General’s Descriptive Records for the 5th USCC by Phyllis Brown revealed the names of additional Saltville MIAs still listed as MIAs after the war. The descriptive records also confirmed the Saltville MIA status of many of the men included on Mays’ list. However, the descriptive record conflicted with the muster rolls in nine cases.

#These men were not included on Mays' list, but were listed as Saltville MIAs after the war in the Adjutant General's Descriptive Record for the 5th USCC.

+ These men were listed on both Mays' list of 5th USCC MIAs and the Adjutant General's Descriptive Records for the 5th USCC. In many instances, the Adjutant General Descriptive Records confirmed the men were Saltville MIAs. However, in nine cases men on Mays' list, listed as Saltville MIAs on the muster rolls, were listed at KIA, returned, or MIA from different battles in the descriptive record.

Pretty close to the number given by 1sgtDan. This info was a rebuttal of an article downgrading the number of blacks killed at Saltville and is the best info that I could find to give an accurate number. Based on the rolls of the unit it is about as close as can be found.
 
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#77
colt
A quick check of some internet resources reveal that more research might be required.

The journal of R.J. Lightsley, Co. F 16th MS, published by his daughter in 1899 does not mention any such event.
http://www.archive.org/stream/veteransstoryded00ligh#page/n1/mode/2up

nor does this from Georgian John Oliver Andrews
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cescott/butts.html

Nor do any of the six reviews I read of The Confederate Alamo - Bloodbath at Petersburgs Fort Gregg April 2 1865. While I can not claim to have read this book I would think that any review of it would mention such an event.

nor does this article written by John J. Fox, author of The Confederate Alamo
http://www.wvgazette.com/Opinion/OpEdCommentaries/201010081053?page=2&build=cache

In fact I can not find anything that suggest anything but an exrememly hard fought battle here. Before throwing out such charges I think it would be wise to get more than a one line entry on a website to support it.
 
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#78
Members of the 5th USCC Listed as Missing in Action
After the Battle of Saltville (10/2/64)
and Still Unaccounted for in 1866*
(Presumed to Have Been Murdered By Confederate Troops)
Last Name First Name Co. Comments
Anderson+ Jefferson M
Baker+ William E
Bedford# Henry K
Black+ Joseph B
Blackmore# Peter K
Bradford# Frank G
Brown+ Jefferson E
Brown+ Lewis C/D?
Browning# Henry K
Chinn# John K
Cissell Charles C
Cissell William C
Clay+ John B KIA Marion (Descp. Roll)
Clay# George G
Clay# John Will K
Crutcher+ Andrew B
Downing# Henry K
Dunn+ William M
Dunston+ Noah B
Finch+ Peter H KIA Saltville (Descp.Roll)
Fox+ Wiley H KIA Saltville (Descp. Roll)+
Garry+ William H KIA Saltville (Descp. Roll)+
Gordon+ Phillip H Died General Hospital—11/18/1864 (Descp. Roll)
Griffen# Perry G
Grigsby+ Richard M
Grigsby+ George K
Hammond# George F
Harriman# Jackson G
Harris+ Samuel E
Harrison+ Samuel G
Hicks+ David B Died at Saltville of Gunshot Wounds (Descp. Roll)
Hunter+ John M KIA, Harrodsburg, KY (Descp. Roll)
Jackson+ Thomas M
James+ James M
Jefferson# Andrew K
Johnston+ Benjamin M
Leach/Lirch/Leich+ Julius B
Lewis+ George B
Lewis James B, 6th USCC
Martin William E
Martin+ Zachariah M
Mason+ Robert M Returned from MIA (Descp. Roll)+
Massey+ Joseph M
Miller+ Samuel/Saul D
Money# Joseph K
Neal # Dudley F
Robinson# Samuel F
Scott+ King M
Scott+ Lowrie M
Seals+ Alexander E MIA Simpsonville (Descp. Roll)
Simpson+ Isiah M
Sloan/Slown+ Thomas E
Smith# John F
Smithson+ James E
Taylor# James F
Thomas+ Grant E
Thompson Albert E
Tutt/Trott+ Peter D
Williams# James G

*In the appendix of his book, The Saltville Massacre, Thomas Mays' lists the names of just over one hundred men that were still listed as missing in action (MIA) on the 5th USCC's muster rolls when the regiment was mustered out of service in 1866. Mays did not identify which of these men were missing in action after the Battle of Saltville, though he was able to determine that forty-six of these men were missing following that fierce engagement. On April 17, 1998, I reviewed the original muster rolls of the 5th USCC at the National Archives in Washington D.C. and was able to verify that the thirty-nine men from Mays' list, were missing after the Battle of Saltville. A subsequent visit to the National Archives and an examination of the Adjutant’s General’s Descriptive Records for the 5th USCC by Phyllis Brown revealed the names of additional Saltville MIAs still listed as MIAs after the war. The descriptive records also confirmed the Saltville MIA status of many of the men included on Mays’ list. However, the descriptive record conflicted with the muster rolls in nine cases.

#These men were not included on Mays' list, but were listed as Saltville MIAs after the war in the Adjutant General's Descriptive Record for the 5th USCC.

+ These men were listed on both Mays' list of 5th USCC MIAs and the Adjutant General's Descriptive Records for the 5th USCC. In many instances, the Adjutant General Descriptive Records confirmed the men were Saltville MIAs. However, in nine cases men on Mays' list, listed as Saltville MIAs on the muster rolls, were listed at KIA, returned, or MIA from different battles in the descriptive record.

Pretty close to the number given by 1sgtDan. This info was a rebuttal of an article downgrading the number of blacks killed at Saltville and is the best info that I could find to give an accurate number. Based on the rolls of the unit it is about as close as can be found.
MIA status could just as easily be tagged on men who were captured then sold or returned to former owners. So it might be premature to say they were murdered based on their being listed as MIA. This is where unbiased scholars would do a CYA with the boilerplate statement that "further research is needed." Unless, of course, they have already made up their minds.
 
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#79
Actually that was the first reference I located about other incidents of post-surrender killings that came up on the search engine. I was only using it to illustrate that the act does happen. There are incidents of this nature that have occurred in conflicts throughout history involving many different armies.
 
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#80
I have no doubt that such things can happen under battle conditions. I probably am not the most widely read person here but I am fairly well read and have never heard of this before. My quick check of my search engine could find no mention of it. I'd like more evidence before i'll toss this into the category of fact.
 

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