Saltville Massacre Oct. 1864

Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
966
Location
East T E X A S
#41
4:1 odds equal unconventional warfare. In all wars where there are vast differences in men,material, and technology hit and run tactics are used. No difference here. My GF fought in WWII in New Guniea; he told once of the army paying the natives a bounty for the heads of the Japanese. I don't know if this was officialy recognized or condoned though. Fire-bombing Berlin? Nuking Japan? Is this war or paddy-cake?
 

Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

K Hale

Colonel
Civil War Photo Contest
Annual Winner
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
16,538
Location
Texas
#42
Look at this..

Ferguson, Quantrill, and Forrest all killed/murdered men with their own hands and led and/or allowed their men to commit massacres.
That's not true on the part of Forrest.
 
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
966
Location
East T E X A S
#43
Look at this..

Ferguson, Quantrill, and Forrest all killed/murdered men with their own hands and led and/or allowed their men to commit massacres. The first two are considered by most as thugs/killers but the last one(Forrest) is a confederate hero.....What gives??
Documentation?
 

K Hale

Colonel
Civil War Photo Contest
Annual Winner
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
16,538
Location
Texas
#46
I have not heard of Forrest murdering anyone, before/during/after the war.
 

kansas

Corporal
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
414
Location
herington kansas
#47
I dont disagree about Forrest but i take some doubt as to anyone in general being judged by whom they worked for or churches they attended. A now well know serial killer from nearby was a deacon of his church for over 20 years as well as a type of constable as well as the leader of the Boy Scouts. Some of his victims were filmed after death right in the basement of the church he was deacon of and the bodies of one was in the trunk of his car at a scout meet. As for Forrest calling out to a sniper that the war was over that would be one of great debate as it is well known Forrest intended to keep up the fight with Wilson once he regrouped his forces.
 

K Hale

Colonel
Civil War Photo Contest
Annual Winner
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
16,538
Location
Texas
#50
And you guys only point out statements made by some of those of a pro-Southern point of view as been filled with hate and venom. If that's not hate and venom, I don't know what is.
Whoa, who is you guys? I've got nothing against Forrest. I think you may not have been responding to me, but just wanted to make that clear.
 
Joined
Dec 7, 2008
Messages
9,479
Location
Nashville TN
#51
4:1 odds equal unconventional warfare. In all wars where there are vast differences in men,material, and technology hit and run tactics are used. No difference here. My GF fought in WWII in New Guniea; he told once of the army paying the natives a bounty for the heads of the Japanese. I don't know if this was officialy recognized or condoned though. Fire-bombing Berlin? Nuking Japan? Is this war or paddy-cake?
We don't really profess the kind of all-out war these days that was used against Japan and Germany. We deliberately targeted civilians as a terror weapon in both theaters. That having been said, I think we over-reacted in the opposite direction in Gulf One. Colin Powell was so upset by TV coverage of the Highway to Hell bombing that he talked Bush 41 into calling it off. There were other considerations, too, such as balance of power, but I think we made a big mistake in not destroying the Republican Guard by whatever means available. [edit] I also got the impression from watching news conferences that the press, as least some of them, didn't think we should be using real bullets.
 

larry_cockerham

Southern Gentleman, Lest We Forget, 2011
Honored Fallen Comrade
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Messages
10,182
Location
Nashville
#52
Look at this..

Ferguson, Quantrill, and Forrest all killed/murdered men with their own hands and led and/or allowed their men to commit massacres. The first two are considered by most as thugs/killers but the last one(Forrest) is a confederate hero.....What gives??

Do you not see the inconsistency in this hero reasoning...?

These men were the same just with different names....I admit Forrest outclassed the others in style but in the end he was just like the other two, a murderer....
Everyone has an opinion and occasionally they differ with reality. It's a tough life.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
7,141
Location
Central Florida
#53
Everyone has an opinion and occasionally they differ with reality. It's a tough life.
Wait,

Again, what makes Forrest different from the two other thugs of Quantrill and Ferguson??? Forrest was wealthier then those other two guys and was able to buy promotion to officer. Again, he killed men and allowed a massacre to happen just as the other two thugs did. He gets a pass because he lived in the years following the war to shape his persona for history. I bet, if he had died in the months following the Ft. Pillow massacre we would consider him a thug too.....

Think about it...After the war Forrest had the brains, social class and money to shape his legacy and I see he did it well...

Keep drinking his spiked punch and believe he was anything else but a murderous thug....
 

Nathanb1

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Retired Moderator
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
32,904
Location
Smack dab in the heart of Texas
#54
Wait,

Again, what makes Forrest different from the two other thugs of Quantrill and Ferguson??? Forrest was wealthier then those other two guys and was able to buy promotion to officer. Again, he killed men and allowed a massacre to happen just as the other two thugs did. He gets a pass because he lived in the years following the war to shape his persona for history. I bet, if he had died in the months following the Ft. Pillow massacre we would consider him a thug too.....

Think about it...After the war Forrest had the brains, social class and money to shape his legacy and I see he did it well...

Keep drinking his spiked punch and believe he was anything else but a murderous thug....
You're allowed to kill someone in a battle. Not just ride up to their house and blow their brains out. There's a huge difference, and it's pretty obvious.
 

larry_cockerham

Southern Gentleman, Lest We Forget, 2011
Honored Fallen Comrade
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Messages
10,182
Location
Nashville
#56
Wait,

Again, what makes Forrest different from the two other thugs of Quantrill and Ferguson??? Forrest was wealthier then those other two guys and was able to buy promotion to officer. Again, he killed men and allowed a massacre to happen just as the other two thugs did. He gets a pass because he lived in the years following the war to shape his persona for history. I bet, if he had died in the months following the Ft. Pillow massacre we would consider him a thug too.....

Think about it...After the war Forrest had the brains, social class and money to shape his legacy and I see he did it well...

Keep drinking his spiked punch and believe he was anything else but a murderous thug....
That's not a problem for me as I argue from documented reports generated by folks who were there. I wlll respond just for the exercise. Forrest joined the Confederate army when the war broke out as a private. It was the governor who prompted him to accept the rank of colonel. Yes he did pay for the outfitting of his regiment, something he assisted with on several later occasions. He was indeed a wealthy man prior to the war. That changed rapidly. When his life after the war began, he was almost destitute and his health was failing. His history and his legacy have far more to do with the facts than with his efforts at self promotion. The only thing he tried to promote, with little success, was the generation of the railroad about Memphis. First off, there is conflicting evidence as to whether a "massacre" occurred at Ft. Pillow. Forrest said no. He was known for being open and dependable. As for spiked punch, you couldn't do that around Gen. Forrest. He did not believe in the brewmaster's art at all.
 

Nathanb1

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Retired Moderator
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
32,904
Location
Smack dab in the heart of Texas
#57
Lets account for the twenty men he killed... I bet not all were in the heat of battle...
You BET? Which means you don't know? Seriously? No, some of the men he killed in his lifetime were people who attacked him first. Of course, he could have just sat there and let them kill him, but I'd certainly think a lot less of him for doing that. You need to go back and read all the Forrest threads on here. I suspect since I've been here alone we've discussed every danged one of 'em. Find me one where he just walked up and killed some unsuspecting dope who was unarmed and going about his daily business outside of the war.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
7,141
Location
Central Florida
#58
You BET? Which means you don't know? Seriously? No, some of the men he killed in his lifetime were people who attacked him first. Of course, he could have just sat there and let them kill him, but I'd certainly think a lot less of him for doing that. You need to go back and read all the Forrest threads on here. I suspect since I've been here alone we've discussed every danged one of 'em. Find me one where he just walked up and killed some unsuspecting dope who was unarmed and going about his daily business outside of the war.
I am looking for the list.......found this...and look self promotion......


Nathan Bedford Forrest. An unqualified military genius of the Civil War, revolutionizing cavalry tactics and strategy. Brave to the point of crazy. May have been built for war: when only twenty, killed two men and knifed two more in an act of blood revenge. Became a millionaire before the age of forty relying on two things: cotton farming, which the slaves did, and the buying and selling of commodities — his slaves. Joined the Confederacy, killed 30 men during the War. Refused to accept the surrender of dozens of mostly black Union soldiers at Fort Pillow, resulting in a massacre. While even letters from his soldiers bore the massacre’s Expired Image Removedfact out, he refused to acknowledge it, to his death. After the War, became the first Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, legitimizing America’s greatest and longest-lived terrorist organization. Stripped of his slaves, unable to continue his previous businesses, he ran a railroad and bankrupted it. Ran a prison. Became a great hero to the South after his death, spawning Forrest City, Arkansas, Forrest County, Mississippi, Nathan Bedford Forrest State Park in Tennessee, and the state’s naming July 13 “Nathan Bedford Forrest Day.” A bust of Nathan sits in the Tennessee State Capitol to this day. He’s an emblem of the sweet and sour nature of the memories of the Civil War and the South’s still wounded pride: a great warrior, but a horribly flawed American. Tennessee chooses to embrace Nathan as a “Defender of the South.” He defended a helluva lot more than that.
 

Nathanb1

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Retired Moderator
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
32,904
Location
Smack dab in the heart of Texas
#59
I am looking for the list.......found this...and look self promotion......


Nathan Bedford Forrest. An unqualified military genius of the Civil War, revolutionizing cavalry tactics and strategy. Brave to the point of crazy. May have been built for war: when only twenty, killed two men and knifed two more in an act of blood revenge. Became a millionaire before the age of forty relying on two things: cotton farming, which the slaves did, and the buying and selling of commodities — his slaves. Joined the Confederacy, killed 30 men during the War. Refused to accept the surrender of dozens of mostly black Union soldiers at Fort Pillow, resulting in a massacre. While even letters from his soldiers bore the massacre’s Expired Image Removedfact out, he refused to acknowledge it, to his death. After the War, became the first Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, legitimizing America’s greatest and longest-lived terrorist organization. Stripped of his slaves, unable to continue his previous businesses, he ran a railroad and bankrupted it. Ran a prison. Became a great hero to the South after his death, spawning Forrest City, Arkansas, Forrest County, Mississippi, Nathan Bedford Forrest State Park in Tennessee, and the state’s naming July 13 “Nathan Bedford Forrest Day.” A bust of Nathan sits in the Tennessee State Capitol to this day. He’s an emblem of the sweet and sour nature of the memories of the Civil War and the South’s still wounded pride: a great warrior, but a horribly flawed American. Tennessee chooses to embrace Nathan as a “Defender of the South.” He defended a helluva lot more than that.
And you got this where? And how in heaven's name is stuff that happens AFTER SOMEONE IS DEAD SELF-PROMOTION? Honestly? So Washington is guilty because there's a huge obelisk in the middle of the mall? And Jefferson, Lincoln, Grant.......the list can go on and on. Unless he sculpted the darned thing himself and stuck it somewhere, that's the most inane thing I've ever heard.
 

diane

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Messages
20,372
Location
State of Jefferson
#60
Well, I can see why you didn't put the link down for that squib on Forrest. It's here:

http://thumpandwhip.com/2010/08/16/rightwingnews-com-deletes-their-worst-americans-list/

When you put up a credible historian or scholar instead of a skewed blog, I'll be most happy to listen!

Let's look at those 'victims' a little closer. (This is informal, as I'm away from my resources and there's not much online, but it is reasonably accurate.)

20 is not the total. Closer to 40.

Battles:

Sacramento: 3 sabered, 2 shot. Forrest crashed his horse into a Union cavalryman's horse in an attempt to save one of his lieutenants and was dismounted. He was promptly surrounded, on foot and had dislocated his right shoulder in the fall from his horse.

Fallen Timbers: Led a charge into Sherman's second tier of infantry but nobody followed! Surrounded by literally hundreds of enemy soldiers, he shot 6 and escaped with a severe wound.

Okolona: 3 sabered, 2 shot. This was a long running battle and the only time Forrest did something rash, which was charge a line of several hundred Union troopers with about 50 of his escort - his beloved brother had been killed and died in his arms.

Murfreesborough 1 - 2 shot in street combat. 1 possibly shot afterwards either by Forrest or on his orders. This man was pointed out by two prisoners in the Murfreesborough jail as the person who set the jail on fire in an attempt to burn them alive.

Memphis raid: 1 sabered, 2 shot in street combat.

Chickamauga: 1 shot. A sniper in a tree making good count on his men. He took a rifle from someone and shot the man.

Selma: 6 shot, 1 sabered. Forrest was pinned against a wagon train and surrounded by Union cavalrymen determined to be the one to kill the famous rebel general.

Retreat from Selma: 1 shot. A young sniper pinning his men down - they were taking casualties and the boy wouldn't cease fire.

Pre-War:

Shoot out in Hernando: 2 shot, 2 stabbed - 1 survivor. Three Matlock brothers and a relative named Bean decided to shoot it out with Jonathan Forrest, Forrest's uncle. They killed the unarmed old man, Forrest killed one of them and wounded the others, two of whom died later. He was arrested along with the survivors but promptly released and not charged as dozens of witnesses stood by him. Self-defense. (The survivor later rode with Forrest in the war.)

Post-War:

Woods affair: 1 axed. A man named Woods, who was a former slave of Forrest's and had served with him throughout the war, was beating his wife with intent to kill her - other blacks couldn't stop him and fetched Forrest to help. The man pulled a knife on the general and was killed with an axe blow to the head. Forrest was arrested and charged with murder but acquitted in the following trial. He was the first white man in Tennessee to be tried for the murder of a black man, and the first person of any color to be exonerated by black testimony. The man's teenage niece was present, and was being protected from attack by her uncle by Forrest - which is how he came to kill the man.

Miscellaneous:

1 color-bearer (possibly 2) for cowardice, 5 deserters for running in the face of battle, 1 personal attack, which would be the Gould Affair - Gould shot him, after all.

There you go. Now you don't have to 'bet'. Do you see anybody in there who was murdered in cold blood, for no reason?
 



Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!
Top