★ ★  Rosecrans, William S.

William Starke “Old Rosy” Rosecrans

:us34stars:
Rosecrans.jpg


Born: September 6, 1819

Birthplace: Delaware County, Ohio

Father: Crandall Rosecrans 1794 – 1848

Mother: Jemima Hopkins 1794 – 1861

Wife: Ann Eliza Hegeman 1823 – 1883
(Buried: Mount Olivet Cemetery, Washington, D.C.)​
Married: August 24, 1843 at St. Paul’s Church in New York City, New York

Children:

Rev. Adrian Louis Rosecrans 1849 – 1876​
(Buried: Saint Paul the Apostle Church Vault, Manhattan, New York)​
Sister Mary Louise “Sister St. Charles” Rosecrans 1852 – 1878​
(Buried: Ursuline Cemetery, Saint Martin, Ohio)​
Lily Elizabeth Rosecrans Toole 1854 – 1939​
(Buried: Resurrection Cemetery, Helena, Montana)​
Anna Delores “Anita” Rosecrans 1857 – 1903​
(Buried: Old Saint Mary’s Catholic Cemetery, Helena, Montana)​
Carl Frederic Rosecrans 1860 – 1926​
(Buried: Calvary Cemetery, Los Angeles, California)​
Charlotte Rosecrans 1862 - 1862​

Education:

1842: Graduated from West Point Military Academy – (5th in class)​

Occupation before War:

1842 – 1843: Brevet 2nd Lt. United States Army, Corps of Engineers​
1842 – 1843: Assistant Engineer for Hampton Roads Fortifications​
1843 – 1853: 2nd Lt. United States Army, Corps of Engineers​
1843 – 1844: Assistant Engineering Professor at West Point​
1844 – 1845: Assistant Philosophy Professor at West Point​
1845 – 1846: Assistant Engineering Professor at West Point​
1846 – 1847: Principal Assistant Engineering Professor at West Point​
1847 – 1853: Superintendent Engineer of Repairs at Fort Adams​
1852 – 1853: Superintendent Engineer of Surveys of Taunton River​
1852 – 1853: Superintendent Engineer Repairs on Goat Island​
1853 – 1854: 1st Lt. United States Army, Corps of Engineers​
1853 – 1854: Superintendent Engineer, Washington Navy Yard​
1854: Resigned from United States Army on April 1st
1854 – 1855: Civil Engineer, and Architect, in Cincinnati, Ohio​
1855 – 1857: Superintendent of Coal Company, in Coal River, Virginia​
1856 – 1857: President of Coal River Navigation Company​
1857 – 1861: Manufacturer of Kerosene Oil in Cincinnati, Ohio​

Civil War Career:
Rosecrans 1.png


1861: Volunteer Aide to McClellan for Department of the Ohio​
1861: Colonel, and Chief Engineer in the Union Army​
1861: Colonel of 23rd Ohio Infantry Regiment​
1861: Commander of Camp Chase, Ohio​
1861 – 1867: Brigadier General in United States Army​
1861: Brigade Commander at Battle of Rich Mountain​
1861: Commander of the Union Army, Department of the Ohio​
1861 – 1862: Commander of the Army Department of Western Virginia​
1861: Successful Commander at Battle of Carnifex Ferry​
1862 – 1866: Major General of Union Army, Volunteers​
1862: Division Commander at the Siege of Corinth, Mississippi​
1862: Commander of the Union Army of the Mississippi​
1862: Successful Commander at Battle of Iuka, Mississippi​
1862: Union Army Commander of District of Corinth, Mississippi​
1862: Successful Commander at 2nd Battle of Corinth, Mississippi​
1862 – 1863: Union Army Commander of Army of the Cumberland​
1862 – 1863: Successful Commander at Battle of Stones River, Tennessee​
1863: Union Army Commander Occupation of Bridgeport – Stevenson​
1863: Union Army Commander crossing of Cumberland Mountains​
1863: Unsuccessful Commander at Battle of Chickamuga, Georgia​
1863: Commenced fortifying Chattanooga, Tennessee​
1863 – 1864: Awaiting Orders in Cincinnati, Ohio​
1864: Union Army Commander of Department of the Missouri​
1864 – 1865: Awaiting Orders in Cincinnati, Ohio​
1865: Brevetted Major General, U.S. Army, for Service at Stones River​
1865 – 1867: On Leave of Absence from the United States Army​
1866: Mustered out of the Union Army on January 15th

Occupation after War:
Rosecrans 2.jpg


1861 – 1867: Brigadier General in United States Army​
1865 – 1867: On Leave of Absence from the United States Army​
1867: Resigned from United States Army on March 28th
1868 – 1869: U.S. Minister to the Republic of Mexico​
1869: Declined Democratic Nomination for Governor of Ohio​
1869 – 1881: Civil and Mining Engineer, Railroad Enterprises in Mexico​
1871 – 1881: President of San Jose Mining Company​
1878 – 1881: President of Safety Powder Company in San Francisco​
1881 – 1885: United States Congressman from California​
1883 – 1885: House Chairman of Military Affairs Committee​
1885 – 1893: Register for U.S. Treasury Department​
1889: Brigadier General, U.S. Army on the retired list of officers​

Died: March 10, 1898

Place of Death: Bernardo Beach, California

Cause of Death: Pneumonia

Age at time of Death: 78 years old

Original Burial Place: Rosedale Cemetery, Los Angeles, California

Final Burial Place:
Arlington National Cemetery, Arlington, Virginia
 
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David Moore

Sergeant Major
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Location
Washington, DC
From memory I seem to recall a dispute/confusion regarding Browns Ferry and “mouth of Lookout Creek.” Also there was an issue about an old map that mislabeled Browns Ferry.
Since in most popular histories Rosecrans is portrayed as “stunned like a duck hit on the head” ( Lincoln said that but he of course had no personal knowledge and was basing it on Dana’s dispatches) any activity is positive and a refutation of the duck comment.
There is an interesting letter in the OR by Meigs written after his arrival in Chattanooga. I may post it later
 
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trice

Colonel
Joined
May 2, 2006
That's not what the Smith/Rosecrans debate was about. It was about the strategic value of Browns Ferry and who conceived the plan to bridge the river there, with the immediate benefits that resulted.

George Thomas credited Smith with "conceiving" the Browns Ferry plan.
IIRR, Smith had pitched the idea to Rosecrans. On October 19th, Rosecrans and Smith rode out to review the positions and terrain, with Smith looking to get Rosecrans' OK to proceed on the plan. When they arrived back at Rosecrans HQ, the order from Grant relieving Rosecrans was waiting for him.
 

uaskme

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Location
SE Tennessee
He never actually said that. He did say that “ It is reported here by deserters that a part of Bragg's army is reinforcing Lee. It is important that the truth of this should be ascertained as early as possible." He is showing skepticism of the deserters
Far cry from Lee reinforcement of Bragg.

Halleck knew on the 14th that Bragg was being reinforced. He told Grant, Burnside and others. He did not tell Rosecrans. Had he, Rosecrans would of had other options. Rosecrans could of consolidated his Army in Chattanooga. Waited until the odds could be reversed.

He never ordered Grant to keep Joe Johnson busy so he couldn’t sent troops. Told Burnside for over a month t go to Rosecrans. However he never gave Burnside a Positive order. Knoxville was worthless without Chattanooga and the RR.
 

uaskme

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Location
SE Tennessee
IIRR, Smith had pitched the idea to Rosecrans. On October 19th, Rosecrans and Smith rode out to review the positions and terrain, with Smith looking to get Rosecrans' OK to proceed on the plan. When they arrived back at Rosecrans HQ, the order from Grant relieving Rosecrans was waiting for him.
And then Rosecrans went over that plan with Thomas in detail. Before leaving Chattanooga the next morning.
 

DanSBHawk

Captain
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
IIRR, Smith had pitched the idea to Rosecrans. On October 19th, Rosecrans and Smith rode out to review the positions and terrain, with Smith looking to get Rosecrans' OK to proceed on the plan. When they arrived back at Rosecrans HQ, the order from Grant relieving Rosecrans was waiting for him.
I think that was the later Rosecrans memory. Smith said they started riding out together, then Rosecrans was detained at some place and Smith rode on and discovered that Browns Ferry was ideal.

Another version was that after Baldy Smith discovered it and rode back, then Rosecrans rode up and discovered it on his own.

It wasn't until, I believe, 1889 that Rosecrans claimed to have specifically identified that spot. And his account at that time was flawed, as he mentioned a general by name as being involved, but there is no record of a general by that name. I don't remember the imaginary generals name, but I believe it was in Livermores article.
 

trice

Colonel
Joined
May 2, 2006
And then Rosecrans went over that plan with Thomas in detail. Before leaving Chattanooga the next morning.
Yes. It appears Smith pitched the idea to Rosecrans, who was willing to listen, probably because it fit in with what Rosecrans (and any other thinking soldier in the AotC) knew needed to be done, fixing the supply problem. Rosecrans probably thought he had an officer with a plan that sounded like it might work, so he wanted to see/hear more. This is all in the early stages of development. Then Rosecrans is relieved, heads out that night, briefs Thomas before he goes. He stops to see Grant on his way to Nashville, tells him about this idea/plan. Grant gets to Chattanooga, is briefed by Thomas and Smith (who would both be motivated to have a good idea ready when Grant showed up). Grant listens and looks, gives it the go-ahead. The plan, well-executed, works.
 

DanSBHawk

Captain
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
Far cry from Lee reinforcement of Bragg.

Halleck knew on the 14th that Bragg was being reinforced. He told Grant, Burnside and others. He did not tell Rosecrans. Had he, Rosecrans would of had other options. Rosecrans could of consolidated his Army in Chattanooga. Waited until the odds could be reversed.

He never ordered Grant to keep Joe Johnson busy so he couldn’t sent troops. Told Burnside for over a month t go to Rosecrans. However he never gave Burnside a Positive order. Knoxville was worthless without Chattanooga and the RR.
As noted earlier in the thread, Grenville Dodge notified Rosecrans of his intel of Bragg being reinforced by Lee, a week to ten days before the battle.

Rosecrans suggested they mind their own business.
 

trice

Colonel
Joined
May 2, 2006
I think that was the later Rosecrans memory. Smith said they started riding out together, then Rosecrans was detained at some place and Smith rode on and discovered that Browns Ferry was ideal.

Another version was that after Baldy Smith discovered it and rode back, then Rosecrans rode up and discovered it on his own.

It wasn't until, I believe, 1889 that Rosecrans claimed to have specifically identified that spot. And his account at that time was flawed, as he mentioned a general by name as being involved, but there is no record of a general by that name. I don't remember the imaginary generals name, but I believe it was in Livermores article.
Thanks. I think I have heard at least two of those versions. In the end, though, they all say generally the same thing (leaving aside who should get the credit :smile: ). The idea was in development before Grant got there, Rosecrans knew about it and mentioned it to Grant as he met him, Grant arrived, checked it, approved it.
 

NedBaldwin

Major
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Location
California
Far cry from Lee reinforcement of Bragg.

Halleck knew on the 14th that Bragg was being reinforced. He told Grant, Burnside and others. He did not tell Rosecrans. Had he, Rosecrans would of had other options. Rosecrans could of consolidated his Army in Chattanooga. Waited until the odds could be reversed....
I have already shown you the source of when Halleck told Rosecrans. This line of argument is absurd

... Told Burnside for over a month t go to Rosecrans. However he never gave Burnside a Positive order. Knoxville was worthless without Chattanooga and the RR.
He did not tell Burnside for over a month to go to Rosecrans.
 

rbasin

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Location
Tampa, Fl
Would there have been a battle of Chickamauga without the Tennessee Campaigns ( Tullahoma and Chickamauga Campaign?)
Some other questions I’d like you to think about and give me your thoughts:
Rosecrans is criticized for dividing his army to force Bragg out of Chattanooga. How else could he have approached that city and forced Bragg to evacuate?
What if he had pulled all of his army into Chattanooga after Bragg evacuated what would the Confederates have done?
Wasn’t there going to be a battle for Chattanooga sooner rather later? Wasn’t Longstreet sent to fight?
What would have been a Union victory?
What would have been a Confederate defeat?
Of course the simple answer is the destruction of the opposing army but since that rarely if ever happened after a battle what else would define victory for either side?
I assure you I ask these questions with an open mind.
Rosecrans was lucky to have been facing Bragg. A energetic commander could have wrecked the AotC when it was divided.
 

DanSBHawk

Captain
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
Rosecrans was lucky to have been facing Bragg. A energetic commander could have wrecked the AotC when it was divided.
Agree with this. And a better commander on the Union side could have conceivably won at Chickamauga.

Rosecrans was less outnumbered at Chickamauga than Lee was at Antietam. Or Curtis was at Pea Ridge.
 

rbasin

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Location
Tampa, Fl
Agree with this. And a better commander on the Union side could have conceivably won at Chickamauga.

Rosecrans was less outnumbered at Chickamauga than Lee at Antietam. Or Curtis at Pea Ridge.

Yep. Not knocking Rosecrans at all. He just wasn't the person to lead the army anymore. Much like Burnside or Hooker.

There were many commanders who for a variety of reasons hit their point of usefulness.
 

trice

Colonel
Joined
May 2, 2006
Rosecrans was lucky to have been facing Bragg. A energetic commander could have wrecked the AotC when it was divided.
Also lucky to have been facing a disjointed, thrown-together-at-the-last-moment army with a fractious high command. Bragg was capable of conceiving good plans (Invasion of Kentucky, initial attack at Murfreesboro, initial plan for attack at Chickamauga), but stubbornly inflexible once the fighting started. He had failed to build an army command and staff that would work together and efficiently. Even D. H. Hill -- who arrived happy to be reunited with his old captain -- rapidly became part of the anti-Bragg clique.

If you could somehow drop Robert E. Lee and the Chancellorsville Army of Northern Virginia on the other side instead of Bragg's Army of Tennessee for a few days, Rosecrans would have been in far worse shape.
 

rbasin

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Location
Tampa, Fl
Also lucky to have been facing a disjointed, thrown-together-at-the-last-moment army with a fractious high command. Bragg was capable of conceiving good plans (Invasion of Kentucky, initial attack at Murfreesboro, initial plan for attack at Chickamauga), but stubbornly inflexible once the fighting started. He had failed to build an army command and staff that would work together and efficiently. Even D. H. Hill -- who arrived happy to be reunited with his old captain -- rapidly became part of the anti-Bragg clique.

If you could somehow drop Robert E. Lee and the Chancellorsville Army of Northern Virginia on the other side instead of Bragg's Army of Tennessee for a few days, Rosecrans would have been in far worse shape.
Sad thing is, the South really didn't have much to offer when it came to army commander.
 

rbasin

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Location
Tampa, Fl
Been trying to find a replacement for Bragg off the top of my melon, but there simply isn't one. So can we change up Corps commanders? Would Davis get Polk out of that army? No. Who is replacing Hardee then? Again, isn't a clear choice.
 

trice

Colonel
Joined
May 2, 2006
Been trying to find a replacement for Bragg off the top of my melon, but there simply isn't one. So can we change up Corps commanders? Would Davis get Polk out of that army? No. Who is replacing Hardee then? Again, isn't a clear choice.
It is hard to find Confederate possibilities. I have a few I wonder about, but they are all very long shots in 1863 and early 1864.
  • Richard Taylor
    • liked by Davis
    • stuck west of the Mississippi until Spring of 1864
    • probably the only real choice to replace Bragg in this group
  • Nathan Bedford Forrest
    • too junior and not a professional.
    • would have needed a Corps command first (which he would not have gotten).
    • I think the general Confederate opinion of Forrest wasn't high enough until after the war.
  • Patrick Cleburne
    • too junior to replace Bragg, needed to move up to Corps command first.
    • might have moved up to Corps in early 1864
    • needs a Corps opening to appear (expansion to three corps in 1864? no Hood? Polk or Hardee sent away?)
  • Franklin Gardner
    • POW after Port Hudson, exchanged in August 1864
 
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