Robert E. Lee's-- Uniform/Surrender

5fish said:
To all,

I agree that Gen. Lee had all the appropriate uniforms for his status within the confederate army; but all the eye wittnesses keep refering to it as a new uniform. These eye wittnesses are themselves military officers and most of them should be able to tell if a uniform is new or not.

We have only questions until we know the history behind the uniform Gen. Lee at appomattox in April 1865.

5fish

But the question still is, was it brand new, or had it just never been seen before. I have shirts that I have bought, but i didn't wear them for a year or so. They just hung in my closet. Then one day, I see it, and think, hey, I think that I will wear that shirt out tonight. One of my friends sees it later and asks "hey, is that a new shirt, cause I haven't seen you wear it before." What do I say? Oh, its new, because I have never worn it, but have had it for a while, or do I say that no, I have had it for while.

This is why I proposed the theory that he got the uniform ordered sometime in 1862 as Davis' militiary advisor, but never got a chance to wear it because he was given command of the AoNV and what kind of general is going to wear such an elaborate uniform in the field (besides McClellan and Hancock the Superb)? I think he had it for awhile, but never wore it, and this was the occasion to bring it out.
 
??

Amazing!

!32 visitors and no one has any detail information about the uniform Gen. Lee. wore that fateful day.

Here is another question I always wanted to know the answer to. Who were the five union generals that turned down the job to to replace Gen. Hooker as commander of the AoP and why?

In the end Gen. Meade took the job and went on the lead the union victory at Gettysburg.
 
J - Man, you used, I believe, the word 'traitor' in your earlier post. The quote you just posted is one I remember from his speech to his army prior to the surrender. Remember that a surrender of one major US Army to another had no precedent. I think that was some of Lee's reluctance to predict the outcome. Grant, for whatever reason, showed considerable restraint and a clear path for resolution of the event so as not to make more enemies nor commit the US Government to making any sort of post war contributions to the welfare of the defeated citizenry. They were apparently a lot smarter than some of our contemporaries.
 
J_Man0507 said:
But the question still is, was it brand new, or had it just never been seen before. I have shirts that I have bought, but i didn't wear them for a year or so. They just hung in my closet. Then one day, I see it, and think, hey, I think that I will wear that shirt out tonight. One of my friends sees it later and asks "hey, is that a new shirt, cause I haven't seen you wear it before." What do I say? Oh, its new, because I have never worn it, but have had it for a while, or do I say that no, I have had it for while.

This is why I proposed the theory that he got the uniform ordered sometime in 1862 as Davis' militiary advisor, but never got a chance to wear it because he was given command of the AoNV and what kind of general is going to wear such an elaborate uniform in the field (besides McClellan and Hancock the Superb)? I think he had it for awhile, but never wore it, and this was the occasion to bring it out.

I suspect you are pecking at the truth here.
 
Larry, when I said traitor, I was offering a possible line of thinking on Lee's part. Not saying this is what he was thinking when he thought he might become a prisoner, but I put it out there as a possible line of thought on his part. Its speculation only on that.
 
fuel for the fire

I have been dogily been trying to find out more about the uniform Gen. Lee wore the fateful day in 1865. I have learned nonthing more about it; but I have learned other interesting things like Longstreet and some other West Pointers' visited union camp the night of April 9th, to meet old friends from what they called the "old army days". Gen Meade visited Gen. Lee at his tent one night after the surrender for small talk and it looks like Gen Lee and Gen. Grant only met one time after April 9Th.

I did learn one interesting item about Gen. Lee in the following days after the surrender. I found it in Longstreet's book.

The Fuel!

Gen. Lee had a large amount of U.S. currency on him, while still with his AoNV at Appomattox. Why would Gen Lee have any U.S. currency on him??

Gen. Lee plans everything he did so what was he planning to do with the money. Was he planning for the collapse of his Army, for fall confederacy, the end of a rebellion?

Remember, the men in his army went home with out a penny in thier pocket and half starved; but not Gen. Lee.

Now lets look, he has a new uniform and a large amount of his adversary cash in his pocket, maybe my theory has legs.

Where's there is smoke there is fire!!
 
fuel for the fire

I have been dogily been trying to find out more about the uniform Gen. Lee wore the fateful day in 1865. I have learned nonthing more about it; but I have learned other interesting things like Longstreet and some other West Pointers' visited union camp the night of April 9th, to meet old friends from what they called the "old army days". Gen Meade visited Gen. Lee at his tent one night after the surrender for small talk and it looks like Gen Lee and Gen. Grant only met one time after April 9Th.

I did learn one interesting item about Gen. Lee in the following days after the surrender. I found it in Longstreet's book.

The Fuel!

Gen. Lee had a large amount of U.S. currency on him, while still with his AoNV at Appomattox. Why would Gen Lee have any U.S. currency on him??

Gen. Lee plans everything he did so what was he planning to do with the money. Was he planning for the collapse of his Army, for fall confederacy, the end of a rebellion?

Remember, the men in his army went home with out a penny in thier pocket and half starved; but not Gen. Lee.

Now lets look, he has a new uniform and a large amount of his adversary cash in his pocket, maybe my theory has legs.

Where's there is smoke there is fire!!
 
Sell Out

5fish said:
Where's there is smoke there is fire!!

Are you hypothesizing that Lee sold out the Army of Northern Virginia?

Confederate cavalry raids would invariably seize Union currency. As the war progressed, Confederate money became increasingly worthless. I would imagine that as the war progresses and the hyperinflation sets in, Union currency would likely be a preferred medium of exchange.
 
Cw1865 No!!!!

No! NO! I am not saying that Gen. Lee sold out the army or took bribes. No!

What I am saying is that either Gen. Lee or his staff were hording U.S. currency; because they knew the end was near.

It goes along with my assumption that if Gen. Lee's was planning to surrender his army at some point in 1865 as the confederacy fell.​

The paragraph in Longstreets memiors is a short one. It implies that he and Gen. Lee did not know about the money. It implies that it was a large amount of money. It states the money was divided up among a group of officers.

The point of the paragraph is show how Longstreet kept only one hundred dollars and share the rest with Gen. Fields men. This act implies he care about is common soldier while other officers keep their share for themselves.

The timeline about the money is interesting. The money is brought to Gen. Lee's attention the same day he surrenders his army to Gen. Grant after he returns from Appomattox. Gen. Lee brings the money to Longstreet's attention and from there the money is divided up among a group of officers.

There is no indication of where the money came.

I still believe if one can prove the uniform Gen. Lee wore to the surrender was bought during the siege of Petersburg that day would be the day Gen. Lee gave up hope on the confederacy.
 
Now we have two bits of information "indicating" that Lee was preparing to surrender: money and a new uniform.

What is a "large amount of US currency"? $1000? $5000? $50,000 dollars? A single paymaster's wagon could easily contain a "large amount" of bills. Three-month's pay for a regiment could be a "large amount."

There are many good reasons to have a stash of cash--so many that said cash cannot, without more evidence, be attributed to preparation for surrender. Let's remember that Confederate cash was all but worthless. Could Lee have been buying wagonloads of potatoes, say, from nearby farmers? An occasional pig? Turnips and such?

Likewise, that Lee had a new or virtually unused uniform cannot be assumed to be preparation for surrender. I can't make the connection.

Now. I am interested in when Lee began to see the light. It's just that I can't fix that point on the existence of "foreign" currency or a new uniform.

I'd fix that point somewhere around Chancellorsville--when the Lee/Jackson combo, in the face of some brilliant audacity and maneuver, could not smash the AotP. Horrendous casualties and the main Union opposition marches away.

I consider Gettysburg to be a desparate gamble. Desparate being the operative word. When that gamble didn't pay off, again with horrendous losses, Lee had to know he was in the end game, and that playing it safe was his last option.

Maybe Lee bought the uniform in anticipation of taking Hooker's surrender somewhere in the rocks and hills of south Pennsylvania? Maybe the cash came from Stuart's ride?

ole
 
Your logic in that regard is still terribly thin. The money is an interesting subject. Seems the currency of the land would certainly have been limited to US dollars in 1865. Confederate paper would have been even too small for adequate buttwipe. An interesting question. Could be an infinite number of possibilities. Bribery would have made little sense in view of the fact the war was over? None of these gentlemen had much power to do anything except take a well-earned rest.
 
logic

I know my logic and theory are walking on thin ice, but if you look at the naunce of the uniform one could make the argument if it was acquired in the weeks prior to April 1865.

The money only means Gen. Lee showed up in Richmond with a few dollars in his pocket in 1865, but one could infer on the use and purpose for the money before April 1865.

Gen. Lee had some money when he showed at home but most of his men showed up at thier homes with just thier human soul..
 
Robert Edward Lee was Virginia aristocracy, or as close to it as existed at the time. He couldn't be seen running around penniless. Many a man would have gladly sacrificed for the comfort of Robert E. Lee. The position at what was to become Washington and Lee University was created for that cause and probably little else.
 
Conferate Gen.

I understand that most anyone in the south after the war would gladly sacrified to provided Gen. Lee with any needs he would have require.

This brings up something interesting, key in any confederate generals name into Wkipedia and read about thier post civil war days. You will learn. They all had successful lives after the war many becoming wealthy but none died in poverty.

I know of a couple union generals that were near poverty at death.( Hancock & Grant )

It makes me wonder how bad the reconsturction years were for the south since every confederate general that survived the war lived a middle or upper class life style.

You will find no poverty among the confederate generals. At least I haven't.
 
You will find no poverty among the confederate generals. At least I haven't.
The fact that they were generals indicates that they had something in their characters to allow them to be somewhat successful in whatever they did. In short, they were not losers. They might have been bad generals but they were capable of taking care of themselves--even after the war.

The rest of your post, I'm sure, will garner a few responses.

ole
 
Grant for one, had a bit of a drinking challenge. Seems to me the presidency should have given him avenues to economic comfort were it not for his ailment. I think Ole's response is quite on target. To have gained admission to West Point or to have been appointed an officer in the CSA required a background of wealth if not social standing. Even Nathan Bedford Forrest had several dollars in his pouch when the war broke out. The training for general he was about to receive in the field. Most officers were alread doctors, lawyers or Indian chiefs, particulary in the case of Stande Waite. The northern officers tended to be more regular army and in far greater numbers, gave them more chances for a man of less weathtly roots to advance.
 
Note: Eyewitnesses

A interesting note about the surrender.

All the description of the meeting between Gen Lee and Gen. Grant come form either Gen. Grant's or Col. Porter's eyewitness accounts.

Gen. Lee did bring along aids but you never read their eyewitness account of the two generals meeting. I know Col. Marshall was at the meeting and wrote a book about his time with Gen. Lee. I have never read his eyewitness account to the meeting.

Has anyone read an account of Gen Lee's And Gen. Grant's meeting that was not based on either Grant's or Porter's eyewitness accounts.
 
Reconstruction!!

One of my points is that as far as I could tell most if not all Confederate generals lived a good life after the war.

I remember a many fellow southerns act as if reconstruction period was this horrible time in the south; and some have said it took hundred years for the south to recover from the war.

I think it was not that bad from what I read. Yes, were Gen. Sherman went there was a lot of rebuilding but most southern cities were intake when the war ended.

From what I read the southerns were more upset about the blacks right to vote; and not about feeding themselves.

Which means that once the north ended the blockade of the south was able to feed itself within a year of the war ending.

I believe the south took hundred years to catch up with the north economically due to the fact the south was just slow to change it ways.
 
Dear 5fish and List Members;

In the article: Captains of the Civil War--Chronicle of the Blue and Grey by William Wood; says in part -- General Lee's Aide-de-Camp explained to General Grant, when the Confederates had been obliged to reduce themselves simply to what they stood in; each officer had naturally put on their best and brand new uniforms. This also applied to General Lee, who wore his best uniform and wore his jeweled sword--a gift from Virginia.

Reading on further, the recollections of General Lee's sons and other associates; he did budget himself. Mrs. Lee, even in her wheel chair and in poor health, knitted socks as to clothe the soldiers. General Lee when he got food, sent it to Richmond to his wife and daughters. A lemon was a big deal.

Another thing comes to mind--women made their own clothing for their family; especially the ones who had no funds. With the adoration of the Southern woman; I highly consider that these women took bits and pieces as to match them and create a 'new' uniform. I reflect on my own Mother, who took my deceased relative's old WWI uniform of the US Army which wasn't in the best condition; tailored it as to provide me the most beautiful 'regimental' uniform to mirror General George S. Patton of WWII fame. I had cap guns, riding boots, crop as a swagger stick, spurs and my deceased battle ribbons, a helmet--and, I got the first prize for best costume!

I often think of the movie Gone with the windand how people made clothes out of blankets and anything they had--even curtains.

I am also of the thought, that it could have been possible, that Mrs. Lee stored in her well guarded home on Franklin Street, in Richmond, Virginia--a uniform at the ready.

True--The Lees, Custis, Fitzhugh and other branches of the family were well off compared to most--The Confederate uniform for Generals were interchangeable for the highest ranks.

General Grant's new uniforms, as to reflect his new rank was still stuck enroute in baggage.

Regardless, no matter how much research there might be done; it is probably one of those things which was insugnificant to those Generals at the surrender. The symbolism that came out of it, in my opinion--coincidental. However, coincidental or not--I feel it was perfect and was used as to take the 'sting' out of surrender, rose the dignity level of General Lee and the process of protocol. General Grant in his simplicity; created a common soldier appearance, humble and not a 'show off' as to rub the Confederate's nose in the defeat. The respect was genuine for General Lee for both sides. Hats in hand by the Federal troops, was a silent salute to the man, the gentleman and a great General as history in post Civil War would demonstrate--the amount of men, horses, support--he did more with less.

The fact that in the terms of surrender, the sword was no longer considered a weapon--allowing General Lee to keep his jeweled sword. The uniform would be of new use. But, was clothing that was certainly needed. Confederate cavalry mainly bought and owned their own horses--many had the bill of sale; thus allowed to take horses home and resume farming and the like.

After the Civil War, the Federal cavalry had to return their horses; as they were Government issued. If they bought them, only then did they get the opportunity to take them home.

Just some thoughts.

Sincerely,
M. E. Wolf
 
Wolf

Wolf,

I know Lee's wife made him socks and repairs to his tattered clothes, but I do not believe she ever made him a uniform.

I know the Napoleonic style coat he wore to the surrender of his army was made in London, England. He brought it out of storage to wear it to the surrender. The uniform under the coat was new or not that I do not know.

I know Lee's staff pulled out their best uniforms during their flight from Grant's army expecting to be capture at anytime.

The new uniform is used all the time about Lee in the days before his surrender. My question is did he buy new uniforms during the siege of Petersburg if he did he surrender was the only option and he as preparing for it.

If Lee knew surrender was the only option then Ewell's words ring true after his surrender. I am paraphrasing them "Any further fighting is murder"
 
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