Restricted Retrieved 8: Without Foreign Recognition, Was the CSA a Nation?

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USS ALASKA

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THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES
How Hubris, Economics, Bad Timing and Slavery Sank King Cotton Diplomacy with England
by Joan Thompson
Senior Division
Individual Paper

All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then the success is sure.
-Mark Twain


DISASTROUS OVERCONFIDENCE
The ancient Greeks viewed hubris as a character flaw that, left unrecognized, caused personal destruction. What is true for a person may be true for a people. For the Confederate States of America, excessive faith in cotton, both its economic and cultural aspects, contributed mightily to its entry into, and ultimate loss of, the Civil War. The eleven states that seceded from the Union viewed British support as both a necessity for Southern success and a certainty, given the Confederacy’s status as the largest (by far) supplier of cotton to Britain. Yet, there was a huge surplus of cotton in Britain when the war began. Moreover, cotton culture’s reliance on slavery presented an insurmountable moral barrier. Southern over-confidence and its strong twin beliefs in the plantation culture and the power of cotton, in the face of countervailing moral values and basic economic laws, blinded the Confederacy to the folly of King Cotton diplomacy.


https://www.ohiohistory.org/File Library/Education/National History Day in Ohio/Nationals/Projects/2011/Thompson.pdf
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USS ALASKA
 

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jgoodguy

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ebg12

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The Southern people were in rebellion in the United States between 1861 to 1865.
The Southern States were never sovereign from the Union.
Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were United States Citizens in defiance to United States Law.
Jefferson Davis was not a President of a sovereign nation because the CSA did not exist.
Robert E. Lee was not a commissioned officer in a sovereign nation's army because the CSA did not exist.
Treason trials of both Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee was not in the best interest of the United States after the civil war.
 

Greywolf

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The Southern people were in rebellion in the United States between 1861 to 1865.
The Southern States were never sovereign from the Union.
Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were United States Citizens in defiance to United States Law.
Jefferson Davis was not a "President" of a sovereign nation because the CSA did not exist.
Robert E. Lee was not a commissioned officer in a sovereign nation's army because the CSA did not exist.
And that is the question at its base. Rebellion or Secession debated ad nauseam on here, books, podcasts, CW talks, Lectures, etc. I plan on asking the almighty one day, I feel confident he will shoot straight.
 

jgoodguy

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Had the trappings of a nation. Geographic area, political system, a legal system, and a military sufficient to enforce political will.
 
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ebg12

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Had the trappings of a nation. Geographic area, political system, a legal system, and a military sufficient to enforce political will.
but so did other rebellions in others countries now and the past had, but that does not make them sovereign. What about being recognized as a nation by other nations. World opinion counts?
 

BarryR

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The Southern people were in rebellion in the United States between 1861 to 1865.
The Southern States were never sovereign from the Union.
Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were United States Citizens in defiance to United States Law.
Jefferson Davis was not a President of a sovereign nation because the CSA did not exist.
Robert E. Lee was not a commissioned officer in a sovereign nation's army because the CSA did not exist.
Treason trials of both Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee was not in the best interest of the United States after the civil war.
The 13 Colonies were not a sovereign nation, but was/were in defiance of British law...ect ect ect..
George Washington was nnot a commissioned officer as the United States did not exist..blahblah


Simply put, "to the victor belong the spoils"...New York Senator William L. Marcy
 

ebg12

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The 13 Colonies were not a sovereign nation, but was/were in defiance of British law...ect ect ect..
George Washington was nnot a commissioned officer as the United States did not exist..blahblah


Simply put, "to the victor belong the spoils"...New York Senator William L. Marcy
might makes right...what makes independence?
 
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Kelly

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Like I said, @Kelly, the Southern States in Rebellion tried for four, bloody, years to exist as an independent nation.

They didn't make it.

To me, they come across more as a criminal gang, that rampaged around for a bit before the national law authority penned them in and then crushed them once and for all.

During that time, the top crime boss, Davis, had to suspend his gang's habeas corpus in order to get more fight out of his gang members.

It happened in the short time his gang held some ground/territory, but then wasn't needed anymore as his gang was destroyed.

That's about it.

Unionblue

I know what exactly what you mean. I tend to think of the boys in Union Blue as international terrorists, with Lincoln acting in the capacity of the Chief. And like rats, the terrorists in blue seemed to adapt and survive.

Edited; modern politics.
 
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jgoodguy

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And that is the question at its base. Rebellion or Secession debated ad nauseam on here, books, podcasts, CW talks, Lectures, etc. I plan on asking the almighty one day, I feel confident he will shoot straight.
Be sure to figure a way to get the answer back here.
 

Greywolf

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Hoping someone will be gentle here....I looked up the definition of sovereign nation on several sites, including law sites. By the general definition it looks as if the CSA could well have been sovereign. I did not see anything about having to be recognized. Can someone point me to something on that. Straight up question, trying to learn, not being a trixter
 

WJC

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The Southern people were in rebellion in the United States between 1861 to 1865.
The Southern States were never sovereign from the Union.
Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were United States Citizens in defiance to United States Law.
Jefferson Davis was not a President of a sovereign nation because the CSA did not exist.
Robert E. Lee was not a commissioned officer in a sovereign nation's army because the CSA did not exist.
Treason trials of both Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee was not in the best interest of the United States after the civil war.
A good summary, certainly of the way Lincoln viewed it: it was the basis for his policies.
 
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WJC

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The Southern people were in rebellion in the United States between 1861 to 1865.
The Southern States were never sovereign from the Union.
Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were United States Citizens in defiance to United States Law.
Jefferson Davis was not a President of a sovereign nation because the CSA did not exist.
Robert E. Lee was not a commissioned officer in a sovereign nation's army because the CSA did not exist.
Treason trials of both Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee was not in the best interest of the United States after the civil war.
A good summary, certainly of the way Lincoln viewed it: it was the basis for his policies.
 

ebg12

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Hoping someone will be gentle here....I looked up the definition of sovereign nation on several sites, including law sites. By the general definition it looks as if the CSA could well have been sovereign. I did not see anything about having to be recognized. Can someone point me to something on that. Straight up question, trying to learn, not being a trixter
the word "could have" is the key...as opposed to the American Revolution and the word "did". I think you have to win before being accepted. " Might makes right' in the world of nation building.
 

Greywolf

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the word "could have" is the key...as opposed to the American Revolution and the word "did". I think you have to win before being accepted. " Might makes right' in the world of nation building.
Yes, without question if they won. Curious about those 4 years, that by definition had most of the sovereign characteristics.
 
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WJC

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The Northern people waged a lawless international war of aggression against the Confederate States between 1861 and 1865.
Only if one assumes that the so-called 'Confederate States of America' was a sovereign, independent nation. No country in the world recognized them as such.
On the other hand, Gary Gallagher teaches his conclusion that for practical purposes (not for legal reasons), the so-called 'Confederate States of America' was independent.
So long as we keep those distinctions in mind I believe both describe the status of the rebel 'government'.
 
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