Cemetery Removal of List of POW Dead from Cemetery

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donna

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Just reading this thread.

I will not comment on removal. I wish all monuments were protected and could stay as intended.

But as to UDC in Wisconsin. They do have only one chapter, Wisconsin Dells: Belle Boyd Chapter 2687. There is no Division.

To have a Division in state there must be 3 chapters or more.
 

unionblue

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Yeah, and some other factors. I'm was offended - make it different !
It's like I tell CSA Today, he's in the same lifeboat with the rest of us, no matter how different he claims to be when at his oar station. :smile:

You and I and everyone else in the United States are stuck in the same ship of state, the lifeboat and maybe we didn't pick the crew or elect the captain, but we're stuck in the same sea with everyone on board.

Maybe if we paid more attention to the boat's status and helped bail once in a while, we'd have more say in which direction we row. But if we stay at our oar and just bi*** about our misfortune, we get the government we deserve.

In my opinion and at my station, of course. :wink:
 

CSA Today

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It's like I tell CSA Today, he's in the same lifeboat with the rest of us, no matter how different he claims to be when at his oar station. :smile:

You and I and everyone else in the United States are stuck in the same ship of state, the lifeboat and maybe we didn't pick the crew or elect the captain, but we're stuck in the same sea with everyone on board.

Maybe if we paid more attention to the boat's status and helped bail once in a while, we'd have more say in which direction we row. But if we stay at our oar and just bi*** about our misfortune, we get the government we deserve.

In my opinion and at my station, of course. :wink:
Unfortunately. :frown:
 
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John Winn

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It's like I tell CSA Today, he's in the same lifeboat with the rest of us, no matter how different he claims to be when at his oar station. :smile:

You and I and everyone else in the United States are stuck in the same ship of state, the lifeboat and maybe we didn't pick the crew or elect the captain, but we're stuck in the same sea with everyone on board.

Maybe if we paid more attention to the boat's status and helped bail once in a while, we'd have more say in which direction we row. But if we stay at our oar and just bi*** about our misfortune, we get the government we deserve.

In my opinion and at my station, of course. :wink:
No can really comment without violating the modern politics rule. I'll just say I vote but can't afford to buy any legislation.
 
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Ole Miss

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This is the story of a small cemetery in Columbus, searching for the lost graves of Union soldiers. Friendship Cemetery has collaborated with the University of Mississippi’s Center for Archaeological Research to use the latest technology in this endeavor. Different cities with different actions. This is what makes America great with individuals and cities serving the needs of their community.
Regards
David
https://www.oxfordeagle.com/2018/10/16/ole-miss-team-completes-search-for-unmarked-graves-of-union-soldiers/
 

Ole Miss

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The UDC is an organization consisting of ladies who need no help from me or others in presenting their story. The University of Mississippi has a cemetery on its campus that was established in 1862 after the battle of Shiloh when Confederate authorities sent wounded soldiers to Oxford and Ole Miss. I have listed the story below in an article that covers this story in more detail. I might mention that "The Albert Sidney Johnston Chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy is responsible for the monument and brick wall."*
Regards
David
*https://hottytoddy.com/2014/08/06/confederate-cemetery-speaks-to-compassion-of-oxford-tragedy-of-war/
An additional site for Confederate cemeteries
http://www.civilwarcenter.olemiss.edu/cemeteries_csa.html
 
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rebracer

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The right of people to decide their own issues should have priority.

I agree with the above and I would actually say that statement sums up my opinion of the war perfectly (a discussion for another time), but I must say this statement must be qualified as these united states are a Constitutional Republic. I know this is a "small" issue as revolting as it is, but this should be an example of why we are not and never should be a direct democracy as 51 people should not be able to decide to dig up the graves of the other 49 people. We have constitutional protections in place to avoid a simple majority from making sweeping change.

Now before someone corrects me, I realize that the council making a decision on this issue, is an example of "republican" government and not democratic vote, but my point is about "protections" being put in place to protect historic interests and dare I say it "minority" (speaking in numbers not race/ethnicity) interests. A confederate marker in Wisconsin is most definitely a minority interest. This is a perfect example of why there should be protections in place to avoid a flippant decision by the currently elected representatives.

I find it astonishing that the council member would make the statement about bad memories, when we are talking about a marker identifying men who were prisoners and most like suffered greatly in the days leading up to their deaths. Who's memories and and suffering feelings are we trying to erase here? I am curious if this individual even understands what this marker is for and if she could even answer the simple question of when the "civil war" even took place.

Leave the dead alone ( I know they are not digging up graves...yet). I would say the same about the graves or markers of any soldier or civilian of any army or nation.
 
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James N.

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Leave the dead alone ( I know they are not digging up graves...yet). I would say the same about the graves or markers of any soldier or civilian of any army or nation.
A good example of that would be the many huge European cemeteries from WWI, especially those in France and Belgium, each containing dead from separate and specific nationalities, French, British, Belgian, German, and U.S. - they haven't been desecrated, destroyed, or dug up every time the ground changed hands. (An exception of course would be the German graves in the former Soviet Union which WERE destroyed in the wake of the Red armies in WWII.)
 

Ole Miss

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unionblue
If the "folks who voted to remove the plaque" are not permitted to act upon their decisions then this country is no longer the "...the land of the free and the home of the brave"
Regards
David
 

Zella

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A good example of that would be the many huge European cemeteries from WWI, especially those in France and Belgium, each containing dead from separate and specific nationalities, French, British, Belgian, German, and U.S. - they haven't been desecrated, destroyed, or dug up every time the ground changed hands. (An exception of course would be the German graves in the former Soviet Union which WERE destroyed in the wake of the Red armies in WWII.)
I agree. I went to several "foreign" WWII cemeteries in France when I visited several years ago, including British, American, and German. They were much better maintained than many cemeteries I have seen, and I never saw any sign of disturbance of desecration. It really impressed me.
 
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WJC

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I totally agree with you, but this is the result of that "slippery slope". Once allowed to remove other "it offends me" items (I use items due to using the other words that have become a no no to speak of) it was sure to continue down this path. This is not the last "slope" either. It should have never been allowed in the first place. I lay the blame on all those who supported those actions.

At some point people are going to be killed..............

Respectfully,

William

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View attachment 207143
Thanks for your response.
The cliche or metaphor "slippery slope" only becomes an invitation to surrender if one allows it to do so. For a "slippery slope" to become real is for us to do nothing.
If the people of Madison want to preserve the memorial they can- but only if they are willing to commit to that objective.
 

MattL

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I totally agree with you, but this is the result of that "slippery slope". Once allowed to remove other "it offends me" items (I use items due to using the other words that have become a no no to speak of) it was sure to continue down this path. This is not the last "slope" either. It should have never been allowed in the first place. I lay the blame on all those who supported those actions.

At some point people are going to be killed..............

Respectfully,

William

One Nation, two countries
View attachment 207143
Yup freedoms and a democracy are slippery slopes.
 
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huskerblitz

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The error some of you 'defenders of democracy' are making is that once a decision is made sometimes it cannot be undone, in spite of the will of the people. We had something similar with "one-room" school houses here in Nebraska a number of years ago. The Unicameral, in their all-knowing representative status, decided to pass a law that allowed those schools be to taken over by a closer K-12 district, which then could decide to close them and bring students into their existing facility. The population of the state overwhelmingly voted (I think it was in the mid 70%) it down on a ballot initiative in the next general election. Problem was the damage had already been done. That is why there need to be protections against decisions like this so a small group cannot exceed the will of the constituents.
 

MattL

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The error some of you 'defenders of democracy' are making is that once a decision is made sometimes it cannot be undone, in spite of the will of the people. We had something similar with "one-room" school houses here in Nebraska a number of years ago. The Unicameral, in their all-knowing representative status, decided to pass a law that allowed those schools be to taken over by a closer K-12 district, which then could decide to close them and bring students into their existing facility. The population of the state overwhelmingly voted (I think it was in the mid 70%) it down on a ballot initiative in the next general election. Problem was the damage had already been done. That is why there need to be protections against decisions like this so a small group cannot exceed the will of the constituents.
Not an error at all. That's exactly the slippery slope of a a democratic republic and freedom we were talking about. There will always be a counter cost to allowing forms of freedom and democratic input. Just like there's a cost of allowing non-democratic processes, it cuts both ways and like anything it's pretty much impossible to have a perfect balance though we try to get closer to it all the time.

The non-democratic or less democratic processes in our systems (national, state, or local) are in fact established through our democratic republic processes. That's the freedom of the US system. We allow a lot of localities to determine the things they want via the process they want.

This means Madison can have a process where their democratic representatives have control over a cemetery monument while other places like @John Winn is talking about might have total control via a commission (obviously that total control was established at some point through the democratic representation and could in fact be reversed with enough support via the specifics of the context).

Madison didn't feel the need to put this same protection in. That's the same as how States within the Union have the rights and power to do things differently according to their own cultures and evolved processes. I mean that's States rights and then even further locality rights.

At one point slavery was a States right, each State had the right to make it illegal but the federal government couldn't. We decided (with much strife) that we though this wasn't a right a State or locality should have, that slavery should be regarded the same everywhere, we went through the amendment process which required much support and did so.

Clearly many people in support of Confederate monuments are strong supporters of having such freedoms at the State and local level, arguably more than those on the other end. This is the cost of that freedom. Madison can in fact put in protections if they so choose, maybe they will now if a large enough of the population supports so. If they don't then clearly not enough people supported it or just don't care enough to do so. Likewise if you or others think every place in the Nation shouldn't have control over such local processes, that all monuments (or all monuments in cemeteries) require this extra process then you can push for national legislation to do so, or a collective set of State legislation to do so.

No one is saying that various democratic republic processes don't have downsides. They do. There always will be. As a Nation we chose more freedom for States and localities compared to many other forms of government (like a dictatorship) since we felt that cost and those downsides were better than the alternative downsides.

There is in fact a process in place for the people of Madison to change this and even in the case you refer to yes the damage might be done (though is not reversible), such a group might fix things for the future in that case. That's how all of this has always worked. Slavery and the damage it caused was a price we paid until we felt we needed to fix that and prevent it. Segegration is another example, preventing the women vote. So people have paid steeper costs for our freedoms than possibly losing a monument in a cemetery. Sorry not going to feel that much sympathy, I strongly feel the response should fit the scale of the problem. So yes though I think it should remain, if it's lost it's not that big of a deal and Madison could in fact still ensure something like that doesn't happen again (at least without fitting a process).

Now there's a flip side to all of this. If you make monuments harder to remove then you make them harder to remove. That means maybe a group in Georgia say gets enough support from a specific set of people to raise some Sherman statues, maybe some John Brown statues. Maybe a couple decades down the road the people in the locality change their views (or different people move in) and they want to get rid of it and those historical commissions say no. There's a flip side for moving a process further away from democratic input. It's always an imperfect balance, we all get it just fine. Some of us just express our opinions rathe than rally against the overall system or advocate those that don't like the process get the process changed.
 
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