Real Marines or fake Marines?

major bill

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Aug 25, 2012
We are familiar with the Untied States Marine Corps and the Confederate States Marine Corps but what about other units that had "Marine" in their names?

1. The Mississippi Marine Brigade.
2. New York: The Naval Brigade a.k.a. the Virginia Coast Guard a.k.a. Union Coast Guard. Eventually organized as 1st Regiment, B.F. Butler Coast Guard.
3. New York Marine Artillery, nicknamed the Horse Marines (the unit was based on the British Royal Marine Artillery).
4. Providence Marine Corps Artillery (Rhode Island Flying Artillery).
5. Virginia Provisional Navy's (Naval Light Artillery or Parker's Naval Light Artillery.

Some of the above wore naval style uniforms and one could see them as either Marines or Sailors. What exactly makes a unit a "Marine" unit?

If one was to put out a book covering Civil War Marine uniforms, should the book include any of the above units?
 
I believe that it was much like the term "Zouave" and was used more as a recruiting tool than an actual title. Unlike the Mississippi Marine Brigade which was actually an Army unit serving on the Mississippi River, marine by definition is something having to do with the sea. If any of these units were assigned to shipboard duty then they could be considered a "marine" unit without being a Marine (Union or Confederate) Unit.
 
I would think the book should cover the other ones-- if for no other reason than to help draw the distinction between them and the "official"/national Marine Corps. And maybe even cover some of the Western infantry regiments pressed into Marine-type duty in the Mississippi Squadron because they couldn't get "real" Marines assigned to them.
 
Actual United States Marines were very thin on the ground during the Civil War. Marines were stationed aboard naval vessels as body guards for the captain & a sort of on board police force. For good reason, there is no Civil War verse in the Marine Hymn. There were no state Marine regiments. All Marines were regulars numbering a few thousand scattered all over the place. This is what the Marines of that era were tasked with & is in no way a put down.

The Corps badge for Burnside's Corps was fouled anchor & cannon entwined. This emblem reflected the Corps deployment along the coast & their seaborne operations. In their case & many others the word marine was used in the lower case meaning of the word. The generic meaning of marine was also applied to many other C.W. units, as well. As my philosophy teacher said, before you can have a discussion you must first agree on what the words mean.
 
We are familiar with the Untied States Marine Corps and the Confederate States Marine Corps but what about other units that had "Marine" in their names?

1. The Mississippi Marine Brigade.
2. New York: The Naval Brigade a.k.a. the Virginia Coast Guard a.k.a. Union Coast Guard. Eventually organized as 1st Regiment, B.F. Butler Coast Guard.
3. New York Marine Artillery, nicknamed the Horse Marines (the unit was based on the British Royal Marine Artillery).
4. Providence Marine Corps Artillery (Rhode Island Flying Artillery).
5. Virginia Provisional Navy's (Naval Light Artillery or Parker's Naval Light Artillery.

Some of the above wore naval style uniforms and one could see them as either Marines or Sailors. What exactly makes a unit a "Marine" unit?

If one was to put out a book covering Civil War Marine uniforms, should the book include any of the above units?
There is also the Texas Marine Department (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Marine_Department).
 
From Webster's Dictionay, 1828: "Marine"

MARINE, adjective [Latin marinus, from mare, the sea.]
1. Pertaining to the sea; as marine productions or bodies; marine shells.
2. Transacted at sea; done on the ocean; as a marine engagement.
3. Doing duty on the sea; as a marine officer; marine forces.

MARINE, noun A soldier that serves on board of a ship in naval engagements. In the plural, marines, a body of troops trained to do military service on board of ships.
1. The whole navy of a kingdom or state.
2. The whole economy of naval affairs, comprehending the building, rigging, equipping, navigating and management of ships of war in engagements."

The United States Marine Corps, and that of the CSA, was principally comprised of "Marines" as above. I have also seen some period references to armed sailors as "marines."
 
Outside of the United States, blue jackets or sailors who are on land and fighting are referred to as "marine infantry" or "naval infantry" or "fuzileiros navais" or--like the WWII Pacific War IJN, "special naval landing forces" etc. Sometimes these organizations are more formally considered as a separate military "branch" like U.S. practice with the USMC, but often they are more a part and parcel of the navy. Just as in German practice paratroopers were and are a part of the air force, because airplanes (Portugal too...Some other national militaries), the idea can be if water, then navy... (Peru, for instance, is just such an armed forces, where the navy is both blue water and brown water). In the United States Civil War, the U.S. Navy found itself carrying out much more riverine and littoral operations than I think any of its serving officers ever imagined.

As for the "Mississippi marines" I think it is less of a mouthful than calling them "Mississippi riverines" or such?

One oddity of the late 19th century, through the War with Spain in 1898, was the existence of state naval militias. This went by the wayside in favor of our modern naval reserve system, but there was a time when, in essence, there could have been a sort of state maritime national guard:
 
In U.S. parlance, I think the description would be capital M Marines for members of the USMC, and perhaps 'quasi-marines' or "blue jackets" or "riverine forces" or what-have you for any similar port, fortress, littoral, or river duties carried out by armed forces?

There could be army troops doing naval-type stuff, and navy sailors doing army-type stuff included in the latter category.

Recall that in the United States, we have a Marine Corps that is almost as large as the entire armed forces of France (181,000 vs. 208,000), unless I'm mistaken. France had long used "naval infantry" as an adjunct to its colonial forces, now reduced in strength and number, and pretty much limited to the "fusiliers marins" and "commando marin" for the Marine National/"armee du mer" a "troupes marins" for the armee de terre involved in amphibious operations, and the Legion etrangere.
 
It was US Marines that Col. Robert E. Lee led at Harper's Ferry against John Brown. There were also US Marines that fought at the 1st Bull Run. If I remember correctly they also fought at Ft. Wagner and Fort Fisher, among other battles. And in General Sherman's reply to General Hood's objection to the treatment of civilians at Atlanta, Sherman used the line 'tell it to the Marines'. Although at the time that was an insult to the Corps.
The Corps started the war with about 1700 effectives and served nobly and with distinction during the war.
 
It was US Marines that Col. Robert E. Lee led at Harper's Ferry against John Brown. There were also US Marines that fought at the 1st Bull Run. If I remember correctly they also fought at Ft. Wagner and Fort Fisher, among other battles. And in General Sherman's reply to General Hood's objection to the treatment of civilians at Atlanta, Sherman used the line 'tell it to the Marines'. Although at the time that was an insult to the Corps.
The Corps started the war with about 1700 effectives and served nobly and with distinction during the war.
The telegraph about the attack on the Federal Arsenal at Harpers Ferry went down to Washington D.C. The only readily available troops were a group of Marines posted at the Navy Yard on the Potomac. They were sent by rail, under the command of Robt. E. Lee, seconded to them as commander, and wearing civilian attire during the trip. Irish-born Marine private Luke Quinn was killed during the fracas to arrest John Brown and surviving members of his self-styled Provisional Army of the United States.


 
Outside of the United States, blue jackets or sailors who are on land and fighting are referred to as "marine infantry" or "naval infantry" or "fuzileiros navais" or--like the WWII Pacific War IJN, "special naval landing forces" etc. Sometimes these organizations are more formally considered as a separate military "branch" like U.S. practice with the USMC, but often they are more a part and parcel of the navy. Just as in German practice paratroopers were and are a part of the air force, because airplanes (Portugal too...Some other national militaries), the idea can be if water, then navy... (Peru, for instance, is just such an armed forces, where the navy is both blue water and brown water). In the United States Civil War, the U.S. Navy found itself carrying out much more riverine and littoral operations than I think any of its serving officers ever imagined.

As for the "Mississippi marines" I think it is less of a mouthful than calling them "Mississippi riverines" or such?

One oddity of the late 19th century, through the War with Spain in 1898, was the existence of state naval militias. This went by the wayside in favor of our modern naval reserve system, but there was a time when, in essence, there could have been a sort of state maritime national guard:
Until 2002 New Jersey still had a naval militia.
 
Lt. Israel Greene, who eventually became a Major in the CSMC.

The 86 Marines went with Lt. Israel Greene and the paymaster of the Corps, Maj. Wm. Russell. Just east of Harpers Ferry, brevet Col. Robt. E. Lee took command and led the detachment into town, finding that the militia were mostly intoxicated and riotous, so he ordered the closing of saloons... Bayonets only in the attack, to avoid "blue on blue" or fratricide and to spare hostages. Pvt. Quinn was fatally wounded after being the third man to enter the engine house where Brown and most of his surviving men were barricaded.
 
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