Limited Protesters push to take down Confederate monuments from Gettysburg

Viper21

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No, those foremost historical scholars have a couple specific issues with what's been published by the 1619 historians. I haven't heard that any of them have condemned it to the degree that the Lost Cause has been condemned as false history by virtually all current historical scholars.
Whataboutism.

Right is right. Wrong is wrong. Regardless of what someone else did. Your either against false narratives being taught, or your not.
 

DanSBHawk

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Whataboutism.

Right is right. Wrong is wrong. Regardless of what someone else did. Your either against false narratives being taught, or your not.
Nope, no whataboutism. All false narratives are bad. And some of the bad history in the 1619 thing has already been addressed.

But the Lost Cause went on for a century, and corrupted young minds and corrupted the public memory and sustained systemic racism. There's no comparison.
 

Philip Leigh

formerly Harvey Johnson
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
I've always wanted to go to Gettysburg ever since I was a kid.

Now if these people get their way I will certainly not be visiting.

The day they remove even a single Confedetate monument from Gettysburg is the day that they might as well build casinos and strip malls on the battlefield itself.
Agreed.

If the government proceeds with the removal of all the monuments and markers I would just as soon see the parks return to nature.

Alternatively, the government could sell the battlefields, use the proceeds to pay down our national debt, and fire all the employees. Some of the battlefields such as Manassas, Gettysburg, and Kennesaw Mountain would be highly valuable real estate developers.
 

Viper21

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Nope, no whataboutism. All false narratives are bad. And some of the bad history in the 1619 thing has already been addressed.

But the Lost Cause went on for a century, and corrupted young minds and corrupted the public memory and sustained systemic racism. There's no comparison.
:laugh:

I've read it. It is the most politically motivated, false historical narrative ever put to print. There are outright lies, complete falsehoods, & tons of politically motivated propaganda in it. While I would love to break some of it down in detail with you, we can't in this thread, or really anywhere in this forum. That discussion would be "too much" modern politics for this site.

I would encourage anyone to read it for themselves, & make up their own minds. Although I seriously doubt those folks who nit pick every finite detail of anything Confederate, will be as strong a fact checker when reading this work, which is full of questionable data, & unverifiable information masquerading as facts. I read it with an open mind, & will concede some truths exist in it. However, I feel there is so much speculation, & propaganda, it can't be taken serious. At least not as a piece of historical scholarship.

I won't comment on it again in this thread. So, we'll just have to leave it at, we disagree. However, I strongly suggest for everyone to read it themselves before passing judgement on it. It's available online for free.
 

Viper21

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Agreed.

If the government proceeds with the removal of all the monuments and markers I would just as soon see the parks return to nature.

Alternatively, the government could sell the battlefields, use the proceeds to pay down our national debt, and fire all the employees. Some of the battlefields such as Manassas, Gettysburg, and Kennesaw Mountain would be highly valuable real estate developers.
Phil, the first time I heard you say this (couple years ago), I was shocked. The suggestion that those fields of hallowed ground be forever destroyed, hit me pretty hard. I couldn't wrap my head around that.

Well, that is no longer the case. I now see & understand where you're coming from. What a shame that this is even a possibility. I'm still holding out hope it doesn't happen, although I think the writing may actually be on the wall. I hope I'm wrong.
 

PapaReb

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Arkansas CSA occupied
No, those foremost historical scholars have a couple specific issues with what's been published by the 1619 historians. I haven't heard that any of them have condemned it to the degree that the Lost Cause has been condemned as false history by virtually all current historical scholars.
Yeah well those "foremost historical scholars" and academia have their own political and social leanings and most of them are in direct opposition to the ideas of our Founders. When our Founding Documents (Declaration of Independence and Constitution) are being called into question and movements are afoot to abolish the Constitution itself, something is definitely wrong.
 

Package4

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Joined
Jul 28, 2015
No, those foremost historical scholars have a couple specific issues with what's been published by the 1619 historians. I haven't heard that any of them have condemned it to the degree that the Lost Cause has been condemned as false history by virtually all current historical scholars.
You are incorrect, specifically there were no historical scholars involved in the project, though four contributors had some historical training. A group of renowned historical academics signed a letter asking that the Pulitzer be rescinded due to the many gross historical inaccuracies.

Another group wrote a letter to the New York Times, who published the Project, asking for corrections to the many historical inaccuracies, this was ignored of course. Sean Wilentz, Victoria Bynum, James McPherson, James Oak and Gordon Wood all signed this letter.

I would contend that true historical scholars have condemned the Project every bit as much as the Lost Cause Myth, this is not to say that slavery history should not be studied and taught, but through historical fact not Common Core like innuendo.
 

Package4

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Joined
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Yeah well those "foremost historical scholars" and academia have their own political and social leanings and most of them are in direct opposition to the ideas of our Founders. When our Founding Documents (Declaration of Independence and Constitution) are being called into question and movements are afoot to abolish the Constitution itself, something is definitely wrong.
That is exactly where these “Social Historians” want to take us, the means justify the end ideology of Marxism. Destroy the founding tenets and founders through this distorted history and then you destroy their accomplishments and works. Already the National Archives website has warnings when one accesses the Declaration of Independence, Constitution as well as the Bill of Rights “Harmful Language Alert”.

I have not checked this week, but it was there last week.
 

John Winn

Major
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Location
State of Jefferson
Agreed.

If the government proceeds with the removal of all the monuments and markers I would just as soon see the parks return to nature.

Alternatively, the government could sell the battlefields, use the proceeds to pay down our national debt, and fire all the employees. Some of the battlefields such as Manassas, Gettysburg, and Kennesaw Mountain would be highly valuable real estate developers.
Oh no, no ... not sell; debt is good. What they need to do is borrow against the real estate and create more debt, sort of like municipal bonds for cities. Then we can provide more free stuff to the masses. That's progress.
 
That is exactly where these “Social Historians” want to take us, the means justify the end ideology of Marxism. Destroy the founding tenets and founders through this distorted history and then you destroy their accomplishments and works. Already the National Archives website has warnings when one accesses the Declaration of Independence, Constitution as well as the Bill of Rights “Harmful Language Alert”.

I have not checked this week, but it was there last week.
NARA’s Statement on Potentially Harmful Content
https://www.archives.gov/research/reparative-description/harmful-content
 

DanSBHawk

Captain
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
You are incorrect, specifically there were no historical scholars involved in the project, though four contributors had some historical training. A group of renowned historical academics signed a letter asking that the Pulitzer be rescinded due to the many gross historical inaccuracies.

Another group wrote a letter to the New York Times, who published the Project, asking for corrections to the many historical inaccuracies, this was ignored of course. Sean Wilentz, Victoria Bynum, James McPherson, James Oak and Gordon Wood all signed this letter.

I would contend that true historical scholars have condemned the Project every bit as much as the Lost Cause Myth, this is not to say that slavery history should not be studied and taught, but through historical fact not Common Core like innuendo.
No, as I said, historians have had a few specific issues with the claims made in the 1619 project. No one claimed that the project was by historians. It was a journalism project. A series of articles and poems and stories and essays, etc.

And it's never been as accepted as a curriculum like the Lost Cause was for decades.
 

DanSBHawk

Captain
Joined
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Location
Wisconsin
:laugh:

I've read it. It is the most politically motivated, false historical narrative ever put to print. There are outright lies, complete falsehoods, & tons of politically motivated propaganda in it. While I would love to break some of it down in detail with you, we can't in this thread, or really anywhere in this forum. That discussion would be "too much" modern politics for this site.

I would encourage anyone to read it for themselves, & make up their own minds. Although I seriously doubt those folks who nit pick every finite detail of anything Confederate, will be as strong a fact checker when reading this work, which is full of questionable data, & unverifiable information masquerading as facts. I read it with an open mind, & will concede some truths exist in it. However, I feel there is so much speculation, & propaganda, it can't be taken serious. At least not as a piece of historical scholarship.

I won't comment on it again in this thread. So, we'll just have to leave it at, we disagree. However, I strongly suggest for everyone to read it themselves before passing judgement on it. It's available online for free.
And the reaction to it has been overwhelmingly political as well.

People can't seem to discuss this subject without injecting politics.
 
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Package4

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
No, as I said, historians have had a few specific issues with the claims made in the 1619 project. No one claimed that the project was by historians. It was a journalism project. A series of articles and poems and stories and essays, etc.

And it's never been as accepted as a curriculum like the Lost Cause was for decades.
"A few specific issues", are you serious? There are errors every couple of pages and it is now being taught in various universities and schools as factual history! The Project is basically a story and if the facts get blurred, oh well we get our point across.....

Even the title 1619 Project is erroneous as those 20 Africans that arrived on the "White Lion" were indentured and not slaves as were many European whites during that year. Case in point, Hannah Jones goes off on a tangent claiming that the original Africans to land at Jamestown came from pirates who captured them from a Portuguese slave ship, this is just purely made up!

When something does not fit her agenda or ideology she makes it up, this has stirred up students to take down statues and question our true history, of which they know nothing.

I could write for pages on the inaccuracies of the Project, but will leave with two:

The American Revolution was fought to preserve slavery in the colonies, this has been debunked by every major historical scholar that has read her tripe.

That slavery was uniquely American and the cruelest that could be perpetrated; not sure slaves of the Egyptians, Romans, Vikings, Greeks etc would feel about that.

She also refuses to debate or sit on any academic panel where she might have to defend her garbage and calls her detractors racists or in the case of the many Black historians who criticize her, of course, Uncle Toms.

The last laugh is on the academics who support her, since Hannah Jones is getting rich on her decisive lies.

This is far more dangerous than the Lost Cause.
 

DanSBHawk

Captain
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
"A few specific issues", are you serious? There are errors every couple of pages and it is now being taught in various universities and schools as factual history! The Project is basically a story and if the facts get blurred, oh well we get our point across.....

Even the title 1619 Project is erroneous as those 20 Africans that arrived on the "White Lion" were indentured and not slaves as were many European whites during that year. Case in point, Hannah Jones goes off on a tangent claiming that the original Africans to land at Jamestown came from pirates who captured them from a Portuguese slave ship, this is just purely made up!

When something does not fit her agenda or ideology she makes it up, this has stirred up students to take down statues and question our true history, of which they know nothing.

I could write for pages on the inaccuracies of the Project, but will leave with two:

The American Revolution was fought to preserve slavery in the colonies, this has been debunked by every major historical scholar that has read her tripe.

That slavery was uniquely American and the cruelest that could be perpetrated; not sure slaves of the Egyptians, Romans, Vikings, Greeks etc would feel about that.

She also refuses to debate or sit on any academic panel where she might have to defend her garbage and calls her detractors racists or in the case of the many Black historians who criticize her, of course, Uncle Toms.

The last laugh is on the academics who support her, since Hannah Jones is getting rich on her decisive lies.

This is far more dangerous than the Lost Cause.
The claim about the American Revolution has been addressed and modified. I don't know where you're getting this claim about slavery being uniquely American.

It's obvious to me that the people who have the biggest problem with the 1619 project are motivated by politics. Much of the criticism from opponents is exaggerated and full of political buzzwords.

And it is in no way anywhere near as dangerous and oppressive as the Lost Cause was to southern blacks. And there are no gatekeepers forcing schools to teach the 1619 project, as there were with the Lost Cause.
 
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Package4

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
The claim about the American Revolution has been addressed and modified. I don't know where you're getting this claim about slavery being uniquely American.

It's obvious to me that the people who have the biggest problem with the 1619 project are motivated by politics. Much of the criticism from opponents is exaggerated and full of political buzzwords.

And it is in no way anywhere near as dangerous and oppressive as the Lost Cause was to southern blacks. And there are no gatekeepers forcing schools to teach the 1619 project, as there were with the Lost Cause.
Her words, from the 1619 Project:

"within the 13 colonies, the enslaved struggled under a brutal system of slavery unlike anything that had existed in the world before"
 

Johnny_Reb_1865

Corporal
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Agreed.

If the government proceeds with the removal of all the monuments and markers I would just as soon see the parks return to nature.

Alternatively, the government could sell the battlefields, use the proceeds to pay down our national debt, and fire all the employees. Some of the battlefields such as Manassas, Gettysburg, and Kennesaw Mountain would be highly valuable real estate developers.

Phil, the first time I heard you say this (couple years ago), I was shocked. The suggestion that those fields of hallowed ground be forever destroyed, hit me pretty hard. I couldn't wrap my head around that.

Well, that is no longer the case. I now see & understand where you're coming from. What a shame that this is even a possibility. I'm still holding out hope it doesn't happen, although I think the writing may actually be on the wall. I hope I'm wrong.
I hope you're wrong too.
But unfortunately that's wishful thinking now.

Honestly I've been thinking about selling all of my artifacts and reenacting/living history gear and books and just giving up on this interest in the history of the war.

How does one teach history and change hearts and minds if nobody seems to care?
 

Philip Leigh

formerly Harvey Johnson
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
I hope you're wrong too.
But unfortunately that's wishful thinking now.

Honestly I've been thinking about selling all of my artifacts and reenacting/living history gear and books and just giving up on this interest in the history of the war.

How does one teach history and change hearts and minds if nobody seems to care?
Your voice counts, even if it is only heard in our little corner of the world.

Perhaps 20 or 30 years from now a 10 year old child will be surfing the Internet and discover the statues that were once on Monument Avenue. He or she will ask the parents for more information. Maybe the parent will give the child Shelby Foote’s three volume narrative of the war.

That scenario could be the beginning of a story.
 

DanSBHawk

Captain
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
Her words, from the 1619 Project:

"within the 13 colonies, the enslaved struggled under a brutal system of slavery unlike anything that had existed in the world before"
So perhaps she's referring to chattel slavery based on nothing but race?

But the quote does not back up your earlier assertion about Slavery being uniquely American. It just says the American system of slavery was unique.
 
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Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Location
The South
Now it's battlefield monuments at Gettysburg that are under attack.

https://www.abc27.com/news/local/pr..._ab5tzcvLM5J4PXveUX-RSeSO3BLIsYaqAH7ipgfuqaDs

GETTYSBURG, Pa. (WHTM) – Protesters are at odds over Confederate monuments in Gettysburg.​
A group rallied at the battlefield on Friday to push to take down 12 Confederate monuments that they say are a painful reminder of slavery and racism. They were met with counterprotesters who argue the monuments are an important piece of history.​
Irish Whaley was among the group protesting.​
“They need to go. They’re not a reminder of positive,” Whaley said. “Gettysburg is hellbent on keeping them here and they know doggone well it’s not for the soldiers that fought here. It’s to keep the white supremacy alive, to keep us reminded.”​
Counterprotesters like John Minton believe they’re trying to erase history.​
“Cancel culture includes canceling history. They think like they did in the Soviet Union, if you eradicate the past then it never occured,” Minton said.​
For veterans like John Molloy, this issue feels personal.​
“We’re here to stand up for the Confederate veterans who actually were Americans,” Molloy said. “They just had a difference of opinion, and they should be recognized for their service.”​
So for a hundred and fifty six years no body really complained about these statues being "offensive"...all of a sudden the whole country is freaking out...the first thing communists, socialists and tyrants do is erase history. Some folks gave a good portion of their lives to help preserve that history, good and bad. These monuments need to be seen by future generations as a reminder not to do it again. They were all Americans, but in the end, they'll be removed, because our country is no longer run by Americans.
 
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