Original M1841 Mississippi Rifle Questions

wingshot37

Cadet
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Location
Henderson, NV
I have an M1841 rifle marked as follows:
Lock plate face: Robbins
&
Lawrence
U.S.

Tail of lock plate: Windsor, VT
1850

Top of barrel tang: 1850

On barrel top
opposite nipple: U.S.
JPC
P

Stock cartouche
opposite lock plate: “WAT” (Script initials in oval )

Rectangular cartouche
to left of oval cartouche: stamping in rectangle is illegible

Top of butt plate: U.S. (reads with rifle horizontal)

Underneath U.S. (reads with rifle vertical): "8c" over " I"


Other details:
Cal. is original .54 with brass tip ramrod. Original brass front sight was filed flush with barrel, and a 3/8” dovetail slot was cut just to the rear of the original front sight. The rear sight has one leaf that pivots on a screw axis, and the sight base looks like that on the M1861 rifle.

My questions are:

  • “WAT” is William A. Thornton. Can the rectangle stock cartouche be ID’d knowing the maker and date of this rifle?
  • JPC is James P. Chapman. What does the “P” stand for underneath?
  • I think the “8c I” is the unit designation for the 8th Regiment, Company “C”, New Hampshire Volunteer Infantry. This rifle was given to me 63 years ago by my grandparent’s neighbor in North Hampton, NH (38 miles from Manchester where the 8th Regiment was organized and mustered in Dec. 1861). This neighbor told me he had found it at a local dump, along with another 1841 made by Whitney. He did not tell me where that dump was, and I was too young to ask. I have often thought that maybe a local G.A.R. Post closed and they were dumped. Both VT and ME had an 8th Regiment of Infantry in the Civil War, but they were a lot further away than Manchester. Is the NH 8th Regiment unit designation probably correct? Would a unit designation add any value to this rifle?
  • Why was the original front sight was filed down, and what replaced it in the cut dovetail? Would that have been part of a conversion to the single leaf rear sight?
Many thanks to those who can provide any help on all this.
Wingshot37
Henderson, NV
[email protected]

 
I'd have to see a picture (sight & front barrel band/front sight) but what you have sounds like one of the many arsenal or private modifications of the M1841. There were literally scores of different mods. Most were modified to .58 but quite a few obviously were kept in .54.

From the description I would wager on an AJ Drake modification or possibly a Harpers Ferry modification using the 1858 rear sight if it's dovetailed. If it's screwed onto the barrel it's also possibly a Robbins & Lawrence modification.
 
Original M1841

Thanks for your reply, Johan. Attached is picture of rear sight (won't let me attach more than one - I'll send another reply with the front sight and band). The rear sight is mounted with a screw with a two pin hole head for I guess a special wrench. The front dovetail slot I filled in with a repro 1841 front blade silver soldered to a dovetail blank. Would the replaced rear sight have required a higher front sight, and that would be the reason for the cut dovetail slot?

Would the unit designation, if that is what it is, increase its value any? Any ideas on what the rectangular cartouche is?

I am researching my collection as much as possible so my sons who will ultimately get them won't be in the dark.
 

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With the rear sight screwed into the barel w/out a dovetail it would about have to be the Robbins and Lawrence modification. It it is both dovetailed and screwed in then it is the Harpers Ferry modification. Both used a shorter than standard front barrel band. Though the Harpers Ferry mod was intended for a sabre bayonet while the Robbins and Lawrence was intended for the M1835 socket bayonet. So no bayonet stud or evidence of there ever having been one that elimates the Harpers Ferry Mod. As far as I know the only dovetailed front sight was with the Harpers Ferry modification but this also included a bayonet stud and the short front barrel band. That last bit is what leads me to my conclusion, which is just an educated guess.

Now what all of that means is we have a minor quandry as the front barrel band is clearly the standard and the dovetailed front sight a clue. Eli Whitney made up quite a few various M1841 mods in the late 1850's as "good and Servicable" arms from condemned and parts out/unassembled weapons and sold them to whoever had some coin. Some had iron furniture some brass, some had no patchboxes or a variety of differnt rear sights and provision for a bayonet some didn't etc. Whitney M1841 lockplates are fairly scarce & Robbins & Lawrence are the most plentiful by far. As for Whitney & his "good & servicable" arms there is only one real rule and that is there were no rules for Whitney.

From what I can see and w/ a realitively educated guess I would call this a Whitney "Good & Servicable" M1841. Unfortunately, I'm the wrong guy to ask about stock cartouches.

All that said you have what appears to be a fine peice of history and a weapn I'd certainly love to have in my collection. I've seen M1841's go for as much as $7k and wall hangers going for $750. That said from the pictures it is no wall hanger.

Congrats on a beautiful M1841.
 
M1841 Mississippi

Thanks for your input and opinion that it is a good one.
Would the fact that the barrel is U.S. inspector marked "JPC", and the barrel tang 1850 date matches the 1850 lock plate date, have any bearing on the ID? The front dovetail slot was rather crudely cut, so maybe that was done at the unit level (marked:8cI - Company C, 8th Regiment NH Voluntary Infantry).

I also have two M1837 A.H.Waters .54 ca. pistols converted to percussion, and both dated 1844. These came to me through my Father's family. My Great Grandfather was raised by an uncle who served during the CW as an officer in a MA light artillery unit, and I expect these were probably declared obsolete sometime during the war. Picture is attached.
 

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My theory and it's just that is that she's a "Good & Servicable" arm put together by Whitney using condemned, parts out or unassebled parts. The matching lock and barrel are not uncommon for such. Another real possibility is that she was put together from a couple of damaged arms by some wartime Regimental Armorer. Keep in mind an armorer, even today, doesn't give a whit about s/n's matching. He wants an operation arm to put back into inventory. And S/N's at the time were pretty rare for US Martial arms.

Rack numbers are very rare in the US military at that time, usually that's a post war habit.

The 8cI would I doubt be 8th NH Co I simply because that was the kind of marking done by the individul soldier not Regimental Armorers. That said there's nothing saying the owner could't have gotten her stamped post war. There are a lot of possible answers for this rifle; with many leading to more questions. Cartouches & inspection marks aren't my balliwick. I do recognize the marks mentioned as being legit but much more than that I don't know.
 
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