Original M1832 Foot Artillery or Repro?

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Package4

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 28, 2015

The sword is a fake:
The eagle on the pommel has a deformed beak
The rivets in the grip should be brass
The 1839 swords should be stamped US and not United States and markings are left justified; they should be centered. United States spelled out would be correct if centered
The eagle stamped in the blade is the wrong design

Not sure where these came from, but all are 1839 dated and easily fool the beginning collector









 
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kevikens

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Location
New Jersey
The sword is a fake:
The eagle on the pommel has a deformed beak
The rivets in the grip should be brass
The 1839 swords should be stamped US and not United States and markings are left justified; they should be centered. United States spelled out would be correct if centered
The eagle stamped in the blade is the wrong design

Not sure where these came from, but all are 1839 dated and easily fool the beginning collector








You are right. It fooled me.
 

rapco

Cadet
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
You are right. It fooled me.
I think a lot of Civil War blades have been reproduced over the years. I remember reading a while back that some reproductions were being sold as far back as the 1890's because of collector interest. Some of the "fakes" are now collectable.
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Location
Northern Virginia
The sword is a fake:
The eagle on the pommel has a deformed beak
The rivets in the grip should be brass
The 1839 swords should be stamped US and not United States and markings are left justified; they should be centered. United States spelled out would be correct if centered
The eagle stamped in the blade is the wrong design

Not sure where these came from, but all are 1839 dated and easily fool the beginning collector
I agree with most of your observations except about the rivets on the grip. They are iron/steel on the genuine article. The left- vice center-justification struck me as odd, but then you see some unusual placement of markings, so I wouldn't consider this conclusive proof. The thing that really looked off to me is the eagle above the Ames address which, as you noted, is just wrong. One point you didn't comment on is the depth of the recessed circles on the ends of the cross bar - way too deep.

Overall I think this is a very good fake and I would like to know from when/where it came. My guess would be the infamous "House of Swords" which produced tons of high-class fakes in the 1960s-1980s which are still causing collectors no end of problems. I do wonder why they chose to copy the relatively rare MS-surcharged 1839s rather than a more common variety which wouldn't attract as much detailed scrutiny.

Here is a picture of a genuine 1839-dated M1832 with MS surcharge from my collection. It's the only picture I have access to at the moment, but when I get home I'll take some pictures of the other markings and post them for comparison

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Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Location
Northern Virginia
I was referred to p.72 of Don Furr's book "American Swords & Maker's Marks". It pictures a fake M1832 which is a carbon copy of this one: same incorrect eagle's head on the pommel, same left-justified "UNITED STATES/1836/WS" markings on the ricasso, same narrow font "MS", the same too white rivets, etc. I think there is little doubt this is a fake.
 
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Glen_C

Corporal
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Location
Nipmuc USA
Dalhgren bayonets are another I am super wary of.

Refarding late 1800s examples, Ames still had them in catalogs. Then there are also the earlier examples that were sold to the Odd Fellows.


Silly stuff like spelling out United States should be a flag but when combined with seemingly "right" marks in other locations, it just makes it harder for some not to believe.

I have been fooled (but did not buy) more than once and another time a rather uncomfortable discussion with Rafael of Shiloh Relics, someone who should know but was peddling a bad sword as good.

Be careful out there

Cheers

GC
 

Michael W.

First Sergeant
Joined
Jun 19, 2015
Location
The Hoosier State
This is why I stay away from this stuff on ebay. Unless I KNOW what I'm looking at is genuine, I only acquire artifacts from reputable dealers that have return policies. Buy all the reference books you can get your hands on and educate yourself.
 

Package4

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Occasionally you can find a sleeper on eBay, but beware, as an example, this Maryland buckle is as fake as can be. I pointed out to the seller all of the flaws and he came back with an affidavit from the individual he got it from. The buckle is still fake regardless of what anyone says and when I asked him to remove the listing, he asked me what type of buckle I wore during the war.
He originally had other buckles, a Louisiana, a CSA and a US militia that were all fake as well, from the same source. I am not sure where those went, it they sold or not. These buckles, if real can go for $2,500 and up and I'm sure the unlucky recipient would not be happy to find out the real worth is closer to $25.

I collect Maryland and thus was interested in the MD buckle until I saw the reverse. He now has it at $1,995 or best offer, a steal if it were real.

Some very reputable dealers will put their pieces on eBay to garner attention and then sell later offline or a best offer through eBay.
 

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Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Location
Northern Virginia
Dalhgren bayonets are another I am super wary of.
Silly stuff like spelling out United States should be a flag but when combined with seemingly "right" marks in other locations, it just makes it harder for some not to believe.
GC
Actually, the spelling out of "UNITED STATES" is okay on 1839s, so long as the inscription is center justified, not left justified as on these fakes. You are right, however, about the problem posed by other seemingly "right" marks. If it were not for the chicken-headed eagle over the Ames name on this sword, I might be fooled myself. It is really a shame eBay refuses to take down frauds.
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Location
Northern Virginia
This is why I stay away from this stuff on ebay. Unless I KNOW what I'm looking at is genuine, I only acquire artifacts from reputable dealers that have return policies. Buy all the reference books you can get your hands on and educate yourself.
This is safer, but as Glen pointed out in his note above, even with established dealers fakes and misrepresentation can be a problem. One of my pet peeves is dealers who persist in listing USMC M1859 Staff NCO swords as USMC Civil War Officer swords. From the 1880s to 1918 Staff NCOs were authorized to wear their swords on slings vice frogs, and their sword scabbards had two carrying rings (see photos). These look very much like the M1850 Foot Officer Swords Marine officers wore from 1859 until the M1875 mameluke was adopted, but differ in that they have leather vice sharkskin covered grips, have plain brass mountings, and, the most obvious difference, have the distinctive "U.S.M.C." etching on the blade first prescribed by the uniform regulation of 1875. I would like to think such listings are the results of ignorance and not deliberate misrepresentation, but I have found it very hard to "educate" most dealers. There is a real reluctance to believe their "CW Marine officer's sword" is really a c.1900 staff NCO sword worth maybe a third of their asking price.

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Michael W.

First Sergeant
Joined
Jun 19, 2015
Location
The Hoosier State
Occasionally you can find a sleeper on eBay, but beware, as an example, this Maryland buckle is as fake as can be. I pointed out to the seller all of the flaws and he came back with an affidavit from the individual he got it from. The buckle is still fake regardless of what anyone says and when I asked him to remove the listing, he asked me what type of buckle I wore during the war.
He originally had other buckles, a Louisiana, a CSA and a US militia that were all fake as well, from the same source. I am not sure where those went, it they sold or not. These buckles, if real can go for $2,500 and up and I'm sure the unlucky recipient would not be happy to find out the real worth is closer to $25.

I collect Maryland and thus was interested in the MD buckle until I saw the reverse. He now has it at $1,995 or best offer, a steal if it were real.

Some very reputable dealers will put their pieces on eBay to garner attention and then sell later offline or a best offer through eBay.
You are right, you do, every once in a while, find something that the seller has no idea what they have. My one sleeper find was a U.S. Navy marked and identified telescope that the seller listed as "Civil War". Researching the Captain's name in reference books and internet led to the discovery that it actually belonged to an officer who was born the last year of the Revolutionary War, and was a Naval hero in the War of 1812, participating in battle and the capture of two British warships, taking command of one of them. I was the only bidder on that sleeper, a great find.
 
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Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Location
Northern Virginia
Occasionally you can find a sleeper on eBay, but beware, as an example, this Maryland buckle is as fake as can be. I pointed out to the seller all of the flaws and he came back with an affidavit from the individual he got it from. The buckle is still fake regardless of what anyone says and when I asked him to remove the listing, he asked me what type of buckle I wore during the war.
He originally had other buckles, a Louisiana, a CSA and a US militia that were all fake as well, from the same source. I am not sure where those went, it they sold or not. These buckles, if real can go for $2,500 and up and I'm sure the unlucky recipient would not be happy to find out the real worth is closer to $25.

I collect Maryland and thus was interested in the MD buckle until I saw the reverse. He now has it at $1,995 or best offer, a steal if it were real.

Some very reputable dealers will put their pieces on eBay to garner attention and then sell later offline or a best offer through eBay.
Did you see this Maryland sword belt on Heritage Auctions? Looks good, but it will take deeper pockets than mine to get it!

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Glen_C

Corporal
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Location
Nipmuc USA
Ames mfg was not in Springfield.

The early swords are marked to Springfield. Cabotville and Chicopee had been part of Springfield.

Also most of the bronze grips were sub-contracted out.

Only the first foot artillery swords, with handles cast by Huse in Marblehead. Ames built their own foundries after that point and casting was very much in house for many items, including cannon and statues.

Cheers

GC
 

Package4

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Did you see this Maryland sword belt on Heritage Auctions? Looks good, but it will take deeper pockets than mine to get it!

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Thank you, unfortunately this is the third I've seen with this pattern belt, which was not original to the plate. I had an opportunity to purchase an exact specimen, in fact it may be this belt, at the Baltimore Show this past March. The rig that I looked at had a sword with it though. This is not a Gaylord rig, which would have been original to the plate. This type belt was issued in 1864, while the Gaylord sword belt plates were pre-war, issued with a normal cav belt either buff or bridle leather in the black.

I'm looking for a complete belt and cartridge box issued by Gaylord with the two Maryland oval plates; a buddy just snared one at the Horse Soldier and I hate to admit how jealous I am.
 
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