"Orange Confederate monument will include 32 rebel flags"

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Tin cup

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Oh, it is not the case that the SCV doesn’t listens to what’ going on out there --there is far more listening than you might think. What SCV members don’t do is to listen to Confederate phobic opinion that they abandon the Charge to honour and to defend the Confederate soldier’s good name.

Charge to the Sons of Confederate Veterans

"To you, Sons of Confederate Veterans, we will commit the vindication of the cause for which we fought. To your strength will be given the defense of the Confederate soldier's good name, the guardianship of his history, the emulation of his virtues, the perpetuation of those principles which he loved and which you love also, and those ideals which made him glorious and which you also cherish."

Lt. General Stephen Dill Lee, Commander General,
United Confederate Veterans,
New Orleans, Louisiana, April 25, 1906.
I don't see much "vindication" with the "cause" chosen by the Confederate government those men fought for. The Confederate veteran's "Sons" are listening to the wrong Lee!

Kevin Dally
 

Al Murray

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the rewards (honors, election to higher office, etc.) generally go to those who are, to put it bluntly, defiant and dumb. They're so enamored with being "politically incorrect" that making a defiant scene becomes an end, in and of itself.
That says it all!! But it isn't just SCV or similar groups. Look at politicians, actors, singers, sports figures, or people you come across in the grocery store. This "defiant" ethos is dangerous when coupled with a population that is armed to the teeth and possessed of the ballot. No statement about gun control here (I own some) but a lot of people need to drop this "in your face" defiant attitude. I just see it getting worse.
 
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ole

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That says it all!! But it isn't just SCV or similar groups. Look at politicians, actors, singers, sports figures, or people you come across in the grocery store. This "defiant" ethos is dangerous when coupled with a population that is armed to the teeth and possessed of the ballot. No statement about gun control here (I own some) but a lot of people need to drop this "in your face" defiant attitude. I just see it getting worse.
Every action is met with an equal and opposite reaction. And the race is on.
 
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When you test messages with a focus group you should test some of your existing messages along with some that you feel might work better with the general public. Often the messages that the members of an organization love are not the same as appeal to the general public. For example, my members love the message that "Immigrants contribute XXX of dollars in taxes, far more than they use in services." In testing, that message did not work. It was one of the lowest rated messages. You also need to know who your messengers should be. I watched some video of various Virginia hearings and I can tell you that I would never send someone to testify anywhere about anything in a costume. That sends a message to listeners that the speaker is not one of them.
I like your focus group idea- I'd suggest the 4th group be non-white/non-black, so Hispanic or Asian; they've got less of a history on the salient issues, and might give more of a "mainstream" opinion.

While we're on the subject of messaging, certainly more could be done to be inclusive without falling short of the SCV 'mission'- this ties into your theme of mainstreaming, but I think it's the proverbial 'low-hanging fruit'. There were minority groups who fought in the Confederacy, not necessarily for it, whose stories should have a place- this includes the Native Americans, Hispanics (there were a few), Jews (ditto), Asians, and of course the proverbial and controversial Black Confederates. An honest telling of their stories- not one shaped to fit a narrative, but an actual portrayal of them as 3-dimensional characters who managed to 'game the system' when it was stacked against them, would give people a greater sense of ownership of the history, and greater incentive to support it.
 

matthew mckeon

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I think they should have a monument at the point where they formed into battle line, in accordance with the regulations for monuments on the Gettysburg Battlefield.
This is a little off topic, but really no loss, isn't there a marker showing where the Confederates penetrated at the so called "high water mark?" I am remembering wrong?
 
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cash

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This is a little off topic, but really no loss, isn't there a marker showing where the Confederates penetrated at the so called "high water mark?" I am remembering wrong?
Union veterans placed a marker to honor Brig. Gen. Armistead inside the stone wall on Cemetery Ridge. There is also a marker for the 26th North Carolina's advance near the stone wall that was placed there in 1986. The monument for the 26th North Carolina, though, is way over on Meredith Avenue in McPherson's Woods opposite some Iron Brigade monuments.
 

IcarusPhoenix

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I like your focus group idea- I'd suggest the 4th group be non-white/non-black, so Hispanic or Asian; they've got less of a history on the salient issues, and might give more of a "mainstream" opinion.
This is officially the first time I've ever been demographically referred to as "mainstream".

:smug::cry:I'm... I'm just so happy...!
 
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archieclement

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Great observation. It is surprising how many defenders of the SCV actions on CWT insist that the SCV does not have to listen to anyone. That is a strategy for marginalization.
Yet its odd the defenders of removals tend to ignore national and state polls that show the majority not if favor of removing monuments........to continue to argue for removals..... odd how it only seems to apply one way.......
 
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W. Richardson

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I don't get why loonies like this are allowed to represent the SCV, which I'm sure has so many lovely people who just want to get in touch in with their Confederate ancestors. You would think that with all the criticism of racism and controversy that's been going on in the last few years, the SCV would want to make it clear that their goal is preserving Confederate monuments.

This sort of stupid behavior, as AndyHall said, is not winning them any points from the people whom they need support from most or at least they would need support from most if they were really concerned about preserving the legacy of the Confederacy and Confederate heroes as they say on their website- people who otherwise wouldn't care about preserving monuments or Confederate history.
Loonies exists everywhere. I keep hearing from a lot of loonies as they cry about wanting total inclusion, total equality, but you know what?, they don't, cause their vision of an America that has total inclusion, total equality, does NOT include me or my Heritage.

It is true though, loonies reside in every organization....................I am a member of the SCV, and I do not agree with everything that a member says or does. I represent me, I define me. I am sure it is like that in every organization.

Respectfully,
William
 
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W. Richardson

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Let us separate the issue of the temporary flying of a flag from the act of erecting a monument in a community that appears not to want it. Marching with the CBF through the streets of Orange is more or less the equivalent of carrying a picket sign or other banner. People may like it or not, but it is an ordinary (and temporary) part of life in a democracy. Erecting a monument that much of the local community objects to is just being a bad neighbor. Why do it?

I can't think of a monument put up near me that most local people objected to before it was erected. Perhaps things are different in the South.

Good point Pat................But let's say that 55% do not want the Memorial, and 45% do, does not those 45% have a right to honor who they wish to honor, in the same manner (privately & publicly) the same way the 55% have? Are the 55% rights more important than the 45%? What happened to total inclusion? Total equality? or are those just "words"? Isn't not allowing those 45% to erect their monument to those they honor, isn't that being a "bad neighbor"???????

Pat, by erecting a monument, does not mean those 55% have to honor it, or love it. It is allowing those 45% of other Americans the same right as those 55%. I ride by many things about every day I do not like or agree with, but that's what I do..........I ride right on by. I don't try and deny anyone their rights. If some people in my home town wishes to erect a monument to satan, I won't like it, but it's fine with me as it does not define WHO I am or what I believe.................

Respectfully,
William
 

W. Richardson

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They are as bad at math as they are at history. They are erecting 13 columns to honor the 11 slave states of the Confederacy.

During the War for Southern Independence, how many stars did the United States flag have on it?????????????? I believe it had 34 stars on it, one for each state, but now they were not counting the 11 or 13, which ever number you desire, were they?

Another case of bad math?

Or am I wrong?

Respectfully,
William
 

W. Richardson

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Hello, Mr. W. Richardson. Can I respectfully ask you why do you believe so?
Yes you can....Are you asking why I do not believe that their view of total inclusion, or total equality does not include me or my Heritage?

If that is your question, I am honored to answer it.

Total inclusion is accepting everyone as they are, as they believe. You do not have to agree with them or even like them, but you accept them. Total equality, is again accepting a person as they are, as they believe, but also allowing them the same rights as everyone else, including honoring whoever they choose to honor privately, or publicly. Once again, you do not have to like them, or agree with them, and you surly do not have to take part in anything they wish to honor or support...............I as an American Citizen, who wishes to honor my history, my Confederate Heritage privately or publicly, am not being included in their "total inclusion", nor am I equal in their view of "total equality"...................

If it was truly all about "total inclusion or total equality" then we would not be seeing attacks on anyone's history, or removing anyone's history/Heritage.......................Instead they would be fighting to include theirs, they would be fighting for equality...................eradicating another's history or Heritage, does not promote what they CLAIM they stand for..................

Thank you for asking.............

Respectfully,
William
 
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Horrido67

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how many stars did the United States flag have on it
Mr. Richardson. I believe it is because the US government never conceded that those states actually left the Union during the War of the Rebellion. The US won the war and their view prevailed. However, I am probably less informed on this subject and you more likely know things about the American Civil War than I do.
 

Horrido67

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Yes you can....Are you asking why I do not believe that their view of total inclusion, or total equality does not include me or my Heritage?

If that is your question, I am honored to answer it.

Total inclusion is accepting everyone as they are, as they believe. You do not have to agree with them or even like them, but you accept them. Total equality, is again accepting a person as they are, as they believe, but also allowing them the same rights as everyone else, including honoring whoever they chose to honor privately, or publicly. Once again, you do not have to like them, or agree with them, and you surly do not have to take part in anything they wish to honor or support...............I as an American Citizen, who wishes to honor my history, my Confederate Heritage privately or publicly, am not being included in their "total inclusion", nor am I equal in their view of "total equality"...................

If it was truly all about "total inclusion or total equality" then we would not be seeing attacks on anyone's history, or removing anyone's history/Heritage.......................Instead they would be fighting to include theirs, they would be fighting for equality...................eradicating another's history or Heritage, does not promote what they CLAIM they stand for..................

Thank you for asking.............

Respectfully,
William
Thank you for your thoughtful answer, Mr. Richardson. You know I respect someone who is passionate about his heritage and honoring his ancestors. You might feel your history is being under attack, but some may feel they are correcting just bad history. Sometimes, I think accuracy matters and some of those relics may not truly represent the real history and probably they are better off in the museum.
 
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