"Orange Confederate monument will include 32 rebel flags"

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unionblue

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You are correct UB and I do not deny that at all.........................But..................

The SCV get's crucified regardless of what it does
. Something as simple as placing Confederate flags on deserving graves becomes an uproar, actions brought on mostly by revenge minded people, or ones with an agenda.


Respectfully,

William
William,

Sorry, but I do not agree with the portion of your post that I have boldened above.

I have attended SCV events, such as Larry's memorial and the work being done on the Nathan Bedford Forrest home and thought it noble and grand.

I have been a part of Confederate honor guards at SCV events honoring the Confederate soldiers held prisoner at Johnston's Island and Camp Chase and have been honored to be a part of those events.

There are events the SCV participates in that draw no urges to crucify them, at least by me. There are many camps in the SCV that are doing their level best to honor their ancestors in a way that draws no heat, no objection from me. Larry showed me that and I trusted his opinion on that topic.

But as the old saying goes, the squeaky wheel gets the most attention. Those members who seem to be more interested in stirring up confrontation seem to draw the most attention.

In my view.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
 
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It makes very good sense. IMO though anything the SCV does is made in to a CONTROVERSIAL issue because many people wish to discredit them. The SCV's existence is made to be CONTROVERSIAL, all of this because of wanting to honor their Confederate heritage.

Respectfully,

William
You are correct UB and I do not deny that at all.........................But..................

The SCV get's crucified regardless of what it does. Something as simple as placing Confederate flags on deserving graves becomes an uproar, actions brought on mostly by revenge minded people, or ones with an agenda.


Respectfully,

William
I agree that many people wish to discredit the SCV, but the SCV often provides them with ample opportunities.

What is the supposed agenda of the anti-SCV camp? Everyone involved has an agenda- even the SCV- and to pretend otherwise is a mistake. Some people object to anything Confederate on principle- that their ancestors fought and died to preserve a Union they believed in as much as the Confederates believed in their cause- why are their objections to what they perceive as honoring 'treason' given less credence that the pro-CSA views in the SCV? (And yes- I get that the SCV is about Confederates...the point is the SCV's response to criticism)? Why are the objections of the Sons of Confederate Slaves (if there was such a group) dismissed as an agenda?

As has been pointed out- much of the SCV's work is without controversy, because it's approached matter-of-factly as one of preservation, commemoration, etc. It's the in-your-face crowd which draws the heat.

The victim narrative spun by the SCV and its adherents isn't playing as well as it used to, and I expect we'll see more examples of intrusions into the public sphere in order to maintain the 'Confederate Heritage is under attack' agenda- this plays well to the base, and gets support in the short term, but the long term prospects are poor. Olustee and the monument controversy there did more to shape public opinion than all the non-controversial actions combined.

It is difficult, but necessary, to step outside our 'bubble' and actually listen to what others are saying about us; the SCV and other Confederate advocates need to hear the message being conveyed if they want to manage public perception. Just like the CBF, once the scorched-earth types get a hold of it, it's near impossible to reclaim it- or change the public's mind.
 
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Pat Young

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I agree that many people wish to discredit the SCV, but the SCV often provides them with ample opportunities.

What is the supposed agenda of the anti-SCV camp? Everyone involved has an agenda- even the SCV- and to pretend otherwise is a mistake. Some people object to anything Confederate on principle- that their ancestors fought and died to preserve a Union they believed in as much as the Confederates believed in their cause- why are their objections to what they perceive as honoring 'treason' given less credence that the pro-CSA views in the SCV? (And yes- I get that the SCV is about Confederates...the point is the SCV's response to criticism)? Why are the objections of the Sons of Confederate Slaves (if there was such a group) dismissed as an agenda?

As has been pointed out- much of the SCV's work is without controversy, because it's approached matter-of-factly as one of preservation, commemoration, etc. It's the in-your-face crowd which draws the heat.

The victim narrative spun by the SCV and its adherents isn't playing as well as it used to, and I expect we'll see more examples of intrusions into the public sphere in order to maintain the 'Confederate Heritage is under attack' agenda- this plays well to the base, and gets support in the short term, but the long term prospects are poor. Olustee and the monument controversy there did more to shape public opinion than all the non-controversial actions combined.

It is difficult, but necessary, to step outside our 'bubble' and actually listen to what others are saying about us; the SCV and other Confederate advocates need to hear the message being conveyed if they want to manage public perception. Just like the CBF, once the scorched-earth types get a hold of it, it's near impossible to reclaim it- or change the public's mind.
Great observation. It is surprising how many defenders of the SCV actions on CWT insist that the SCV does not have to listen to anyone. That is a strategy for marginalization.
 

RobertP

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The thirteen columns that represent the states that fought on the side of the Confederacy during the Civil War already stand north of the interstate off Martin Luther King Jr. Drive. The group will add eight flags as soon as the poles come in – though Davis can't estimate when that will be – and the remaining flags will be added in increments of eight as funds allow until all 32 stand around the circular monument, Davis said.

Each flag with have a nameplate and history of the flag.

Locals whose ancestors fought in the Confederate Army or Navy also contributed to the memorial by purchasing bricks at $50, $300 and $500 and benches at $800, according to the group's website.

http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/article/Orange-Confederate-monument-will-include-32-rebel-6178127.php
I read the linked article and noted that the flags represent 32 Texas regiments. Does anyone have a listing of those 32?
 

CMWinkler

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I agree that many people wish to discredit the SCV, but the SCV often provides them with ample opportunities.

What is the supposed agenda of the anti-SCV camp? Everyone involved has an agenda- even the SCV- and to pretend otherwise is a mistake. Some people object to anything Confederate on principle- that their ancestors fought and died to preserve a Union they believed in as much as the Confederates believed in their cause- why are their objections to what they perceive as honoring 'treason' given less credence that the pro-CSA views in the SCV? (And yes- I get that the SCV is about Confederates...the point is the SCV's response to criticism)? Why are the objections of the Sons of Confederate Slaves (if there was such a group) dismissed as an agenda?

As has been pointed out- much of the SCV's work is without controversy, because it's approached matter-of-factly as one of preservation, commemoration, etc. It's the in-your-face crowd which draws the heat.

The victim narrative spun by the SCV and its adherents isn't playing as well as it used to, and I expect we'll see more examples of intrusions into the public sphere in order to maintain the 'Confederate Heritage is under attack' agenda- this plays well to the base, and gets support in the short term, but the long term prospects are poor. Olustee and the monument controversy there did more to shape public opinion than all the non-controversial actions combined.

It is difficult, but necessary, to step outside our 'bubble' and actually listen to what others are saying about us; the SCV and other Confederate advocates need to hear the message being conveyed if they want to manage public perception. Just like the CBF, once the scorched-earth types get a hold of it, it's near impossible to reclaim it- or change the public's mind.
I don't see anything with which I disagree I would note, however, the brouhaha over the Texas specialty plate is an example of a noncontroversial action which was twisted into controversy. It's those sorts of things that inspire a siege mentality. I will say that the siege mentality is contagious. It contributes the self inflicted wounds discussed here.
 
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CMWinkler

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Great observation. It is surprising how many defenders of the SCV actions on CWT insist that the SCV does not have to listen to anyone. That is a strategy for marginalization.
I'm curious, Pat. What are your recommendations to the SCV to prevent it from being marginalized?
 
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CSA Today

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Great observation. It is surprising how many defenders of the SCV actions on CWT insist that the SCV does not have to listen to anyone. That is a strategy for marginalization.
Oh, it is not the case that the SCV doesn’t listens to what’ going on out there --there is far more listening than you might think. What SCV members don’t do is to listen to Confederate phobic opinion that they abandon the Charge to honour and to defend the Confederate soldier’s good name.

Charge to the Sons of Confederate Veterans

"To you, Sons of Confederate Veterans, we will commit the vindication of the cause for which we fought. To your strength will be given the defense of the Confederate soldier's good name, the guardianship of his history, the emulation of his virtues, the perpetuation of those principles which he loved and which you love also, and those ideals which made him glorious and which you also cherish."

Lt. General Stephen Dill Lee, Commander General,
United Confederate Veterans,
New Orleans, Louisiana, April 25, 1906.
 

Pat Young

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I'm curious, Pat. What are your recommendations to the SCV to prevent it from being marginalized?
Here is a bit of what I wrote earlier on the monument. I know that you characterized my posts as "sniping", but I don't see how this one is anything but free advice which may be worth what it costs:

the first thing I would do [in re a monument] is shop the idea around to different municipalities to see which was interested. I would want the monument to be appreciated by the locals. If I am putting a lot of time and money into the project, and this Orange monument tops in at 50,000 dollars, I want to find ways to incorporate it into the local community's life. I would want it to be a source of civic pride, not a finger in the eye of locals secured only by threatening to go to court.

Even beloved monuments have a tendency to fall into disrepair after the erecting generation dies. Monuments that are scorned by the local community die ignoble deaths.

After securing local elected official interest in a monument, I would go to the various stakeholders in the community to help develop the design. This means meeting not only with SCVs, but also with local businesses, black community leaders, pastors, educators, etc. It also means incorporating stakeholder input into the final location and design.

This is frankly how such monuments get built in most of the U.S. if the organizers want them to be loved by the people who will see them every day.


On the broader issue of marginalization, I will assume that your question is asked out of a genuine interest in my opinion CMWinkler. I have no special knowledge of the SCV, I am not a current or former member, and have no relatives who are members that I know of, but I will try to explain what I would do. I do not assume that the SCV has not already taken these steps or the possibility that the group has considered them and rejected them as incompatible with its mission.

I will begin by assuming that the SCV wants to avoid marginalization. This not always the case with small organizations like this which sometimes view themselves as a remnant and thrive on the sense of being outside the society (which they may see as corrupt). Such an approach can lead to the hypermobilization of existing membership and excitement among the base of supporters, but it will limit the crafting of a successful public role. "Remnants" tend to stay remnants, even if they preserve multigenerational continuity.

The process would normally begin with extensive internal discussions in which a consensus is reached on the desirability of mainstreaming. Very often organizations cannot come to a successful consensus for change because while leadership sees a need to mainstream, membership sees such a move as "compromising" the values of the organization or "selling out". These organizations will often opt for marginalization rather than endure a civil war within the organization that could lead to factionalization, lost friendships, and ultimately the demise of the group.

If it was established that the organization was ready for change, then I would approach other stakeholders in the SCV. These would be auxiliaries, allies, and associated organizations. For the SCV, this might involve the Daughters groups, historical preservation societies, local, regional, and national partners. This consultation would both serve to inform the SCV change process and provide an opportunity to assess which allies would be alienated and which would support change. The SCV would then incorporate the assessment into deciding on the desirability of a new direction.

I have to do a newspaper interview now, but I will try to post some more thoughts on this question after I get back.

I offer these thoughts as someone who has thirty years of experience in forming community organizations and who presided for seven years over the largest regional coalition of immigrant groups in the country. These are the practices I used with these groups, I don't know if they have any relevance to an organization seemingly very different.
 

Pat Young

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I'm curious, Pat. What are your recommendations to the SCV to prevent it from being marginalized?
Ok, done with the reporter. Now I can get back to giving advice no one will listen to.

The next thing that I would do is commission some opinion research. I would only do it in Southern states since I don't think the SCV is very well known outside of the South, and those who do know it are likely to have a negative opinion. For about 20,000 dollars you might be able to get four focus groups. I would do two white, at least one African American, and one more that is either African American or mixed. Typically opinion researchers don't like to do mixed race on this sort of topic, so you might just want to go with another African American focus group. I don't really know what geographic location the focus groups should be held in. I am guessing an area where you can get both urban and suburban participants would be best. We often use Towson Maryland for that reason, but that is too far North for this research.

I would use a selection instrument to select people who are in the middle on the SCV. People who may have heard of it but who have no immediate family members in it. Folks with no strong feelings on the subject. I would shoot for middle income for the region and for people with high school diplomas through bachellors.

The actual focus groups would follow the normal protocals. At some point you might present generic images from the Civil War, graves of Confederate soldiers (without CBF), etc. Later you would want to present images of SCV color guards, CBFs, other symbols of the SCV. Also show the SCV in non-controversial activities as well. I would recommend showing them sometimes in street clothes without identifying markings and other times in SCV specific clothing. Also several possible messages should be tested with the groups.

Your consultant would write a report on the focus groups, but your leadership should watch the videos of the focus and see how the respondents react to different images and messages. Actually watching peoples' facial expressions change in real time and hearing the tones of their voices is very important in getting a sense of how they think about the SCV's manifestations.
 
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18thVirginia

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Orange has a troubled history of violence, much of it revolving around race. There were reports of murders of suspected abolition sympathizers in 1860/61, and the town had a well-known lynching tree on the main street downtown for many years, until some local business leaders decided that particular landmark wasn't actually so good for business and cut it down. Orange is alleged to have been a "sundown town," like a number of small communities in that area. With that historical baggage, it's not surprising that many in that community view the placement of this particular monument, with its almost three dozen Confederate flags, on MLK Drive to be delibrate provocation.
We've driven that route lots of times to visit relatives south of Houston. The younger generation of relatives always warn us before we leave not to stop in the county where Orange is located. These are younger people who've only lived in Texas or Louisiana, so we're not talking about those with certain biases about the South. We've started to stop in that county any number of times and reminded ourselves to just drive on a little further to get gas.

Maybe the SCV is doing travelers a favor by letting them know they're in a county that may have different standards than other places they're traveling from. Buy that gas on down the road.
 

CMWinkler

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Ok, done with the reporter. Now I can get back to giving advice no one will listen to.

The next thing that I would do is commission some opinion research. I would only do it in Southern states since I don't think the SCV is very well known outside of the South, and those who do know it are likely to have a negative opinion. For about 20,000 dollars you might be able to get four focus groups. I would do two white, at least one African American, and one more that is either African American or mixed. Typically opinion researchers don't like to do mixed race on this sort of topic, so you might just want to go with another African American focus group. I don't really know what geographic location the focus groups should be held in. I am guessing an area where you can get both urban and suburban participants would be best. We often use Towson Maryland for that reason, but that is too far North for this research.

I would use a selection instrument to select people who are in the middle on the SCV. People who may have heard of it but who have no immediate family members in it. Folks with no strong feelings on the subject. I would shoot for middle income for the region and for people with high school diplomas through bachellors.

The actual focus groups would follow the normal protocals. At some point you might present generic images from the Civil War, graves of Confederate soldiers (without CBF), etc. Later you would want to present images of SCV color guards, CBFs, other symbols of the SCV. Also show the SCV in non-controversial activities as well. I would recommend showing them sometimes in street clothes without identifying markings and other times in SCV specific clothing. Also several possible messages should be tested with the groups.

Your consultant would write a report on the focus groups, but your leadership should watch the videos of the focus and see how the respondents react to different images and messages. Actually watching peoples' facial expressions change in real time and hearing the tones of their voices is very important in getting a sense of how they think about the SCV's manifestations.
Thank you, Pat. My inquiry was, in fact genuine. With your permission, I will forward your advice up the chain. I'd like to see their reaction.
 
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Pat Young

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Thank you, Pat. My inquiry was, in fact genuine. With your permission, I will forward your advice up the chain. I'd like to see their reaction.
If I get some time, there are more steps I can outline. You can send this along if you like.
 

Pat Young

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I would like that, thank you.
When you test messages with a focus group you should test some of your existing messages along with some that you feel might work better with the general public. Often the messages that the members of an organization love are not the same as appeal to the general public. For example, my members love the message that "Immigrants contribute XXX of dollars in taxes, far more than they use in services." In testing, that message did not work. It was one of the lowest rated messages. You also need to know who your messengers should be. I watched some video of various Virginia hearings and I can tell you that I would never send someone to testify anywhere about anything in a costume. That sends a message to listeners that the speaker is not one of them.
 
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RobertP

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We've driven that route lots of times to visit relatives south of Houston. The younger generation of relatives always warn us before we leave not to stop in the county where Orange is located. These are younger people who've only lived in Texas or Louisiana, so we're not talking about those with certain biases about the South. We've started to stop in that county any number of times and reminded ourselves to just drive on a little further to get gas.

Maybe the SCV is doing travelers a favor by letting them know they're in a county that may have different standards than other places they're traveling from. Buy that gas on down the road.
I would add New Orleans and Mobile to that list as well, maybe even south Houston as being significantly more dangerous places along your route.
 
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unionblue

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I agree that many people wish to discredit the SCV, but the SCV often provides them with ample opportunities.

What is the supposed agenda of the anti-SCV camp? Everyone involved has an agenda- even the SCV- and to pretend otherwise is a mistake. Some people object to anything Confederate on principle- that their ancestors fought and died to preserve a Union they believed in as much as the Confederates believed in their cause- why are their objections to what they perceive as honoring 'treason' given less credence that the pro-CSA views in the SCV? (And yes- I get that the SCV is about Confederates...the point is the SCV's response to criticism)? Why are the objections of the Sons of Confederate Slaves (if there was such a group) dismissed as an agenda?

As has been pointed out- much of the SCV's work is without controversy, because it's approached matter-of-factly as one of preservation, commemoration, etc. It's the in-your-face crowd which draws the heat.

The victim narrative spun by the SCV and its adherents isn't playing as well as it used to, and I expect we'll see more examples of intrusions into the public sphere in order to maintain the 'Confederate Heritage is under attack' agenda- this plays well to the base, and gets support in the short term, but the long term prospects are poor. Olustee and the monument controversy there did more to shape public opinion than all the non-controversial actions combined.

It is difficult, but necessary, to step outside our 'bubble' and actually listen to what others are saying about us; the SCV and other Confederate advocates need to hear the message being conveyed if they want to manage public perception. Just like the CBF, once the scorched-earth types get a hold of it, it's near impossible to reclaim it- or change the public's mind.
Shadow9216,

EXCELLENT summary.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
 
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