Restricted "Orange Confederate monument will include 32 rebel flags"

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wilber6150

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Retired Moderator
Joined
Apr 1, 2009
Location
deep in the Mohawk Valley of Central New York
Kinda like the objection to a monument to the 15th Alabama on Little Round Top?
Did the 15th reach the summet? Wasn't that the crux of that argument?

edit.. Had to research this a little more and see that it was difference of opinion on just how far the 15th had advanced that caused it...
 
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cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Right here.
Every time we talk about Missouri or Kentucky, and if they seceded or not, its sure that faster I can write this post, there is multiple posts that point out that they remained in Union. Then, on the other hand, when talking about slavery, those same states become border states. I don´t know, but it sure seems that "someone" is trying to distance itself from the fact that there were slave states in the Union :unsure:
You're confusing South with the confederacy and North with the Union.
 
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IcarusPhoenix

Sergeant Major
Joined
May 22, 2011
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Kinda like the objection to a monument to the 15th Alabama on Little Round Top?
That was a much more contemporary argument, between the men who actually fought the battle; such arguments shouldn't be repeated ad infinitum long after the men in question died.
Good to hear that, I think I'll fly my battle flag now.
If we needed any confirmation that some people are more motivated by their modern political beliefs than by the study of actual history...
 

dvrmte

Major
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Location
South Carolina
If we needed any confirmation that some people are more motivated by their modern political beliefs than by the study of actual history...
If we needed any confirmation that some people are more motivated by their modern political beliefs than by the study of actual history... then we need to look at the posts of those that claim to wear many hats; politics; claims of being a constitutional specialist when they aren't; etc? Do I win anything if I guess correctly?
 

Delhi Rangers

First Sergeant
Joined
Nov 1, 2011
Location
Alabama
That was a much more contemporary argument, between the men who actually fought the battle; such arguments shouldn't be repeated ad infinitum long after the men in question died.

If we needed any confirmation that some people are more motivated by their modern political beliefs than by the study of actual history...
I am sure that you agree that the Federal monument should be allowed at Olustee, as do I. Do you believe that the 15th Alabama should have been allowed to have a monument at Little Round Top?
 
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Pacific Northwest
I think it would do everyone a world of good- especially our Confederate-supporting members- to actually read and think about what @hanna260 is trying to tell us- as she stated, her generation is going to be the one deciding the ultimate fate of these things some day, so all of us who have an opinion need to be formulating a case which will persuade her and her peers. If the SCV is seen as divisive and confrontational- and perceived to be unnecessarily so- what support will it garner in the future to preserve its gains, let alone develop new ones? Two words for everyone: Eminent Domain. When the town decides a new Wal-Mart is a greater community asset than Confederhenge, down it comes. This will be a shame, because the same logic will apply to battlefields (need new housing developments/schools), museums (that road needs to be widened) and so forth. Once that ball begins to roll, how is it going to be stopped? By more and larger flags? More in-your-face "honoring my ancestors"?

This is a touchy subject, and everyone gets prickly about it- the usual arguments of no-you-can't/yes-I-can get trotted out...but lost in all the noise is how you're perceived by the mainstream- because that's who you have to convince, and Southern partisans? Y'all are losing the perception management battle. If anyone wants to discuss the analysis behind this conclusion, I'm happy to do so- I've offered for over a year to help with messaging and countering negative perception, but no-one's been interested. Meanwhile, the anti-CSA sentiment is gaining traction, regardless of what 'victories' you may read about in the news.

Hearts and Minds- Are Your Actions Winning Them?
 

cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Right here.
I am sure that you agree that the Federal monument should be allowed at Olustee, as do I. Do you believe that the 15th Alabama should have been allowed to have a monument at Little Round Top?
I think they should have a monument at the point where they formed into battle line, in accordance with the regulations for monuments on the Gettysburg Battlefield.
 

IcarusPhoenix

Sergeant Major
Joined
May 22, 2011
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
If we needed any confirmation that some people are more motivated by their modern political beliefs than by the study of actual history... then we need to look at the posts of those that claim to wear many hats; politics; claims of being a constitutional specialist when they aren't; etc? Do I win anything if I guess correctly?
You just couldn't help yourself, could you? ***edited by moderator jgoodguy ***

I am sure that you agree that the Federal monument should be allowed at Olustee, as do I. Do you believe that the 15th Alabama should have been allowed to have a monument at Little Round Top?
Absolutely. I also think that the question of "where" should be a lot easier now that the men most invested in the question have been dead for a century.
 
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Delhi Rangers

First Sergeant
Joined
Nov 1, 2011
Location
Alabama
You just couldn't help yourself, could you? Yeah, I'm not going to keep stroking your already considerable ego.


Absolutely. I also think that the question of "where" should be a lot easier now that the men most invested in the question have been dead for a century.
Thank you. I do not understand why anyone would object to the placement of a monument (Confederate or Federal) to any regiment who fought and died there. I also believe that they should be placed in historically accurate positions. The argument over the 15th Alabama monument started after the war between Chamberlain and Oates regarding where the monument should be placed. But I guess some say that some battlefields have too many monuments and their argument would be that too many destroys the pristine affect.
 

IcarusPhoenix

Sergeant Major
Joined
May 22, 2011
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
The argument over the 15th Alabama monument started after the war between Chamberlain and Oates regarding where the monument should be placed.
I actually wonder if the more recent standards that cash mentioned about monuments being placed at the point where units formed for battle weren't written as a response to Oates' and Chamberlain's point-of-penetration argument.
 

cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Right here.
I actually wonder if the more recent standards that cash mentioned about monuments being placed at the point where units formed for battle weren't written as a response to Oates' and Chamberlain's point-of-penetration argument.
Actually, those standards were in place at the time of the squabble. Oates didn't like it.
 
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IcarusPhoenix

Sergeant Major
Joined
May 22, 2011
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Actually, those standards were in place at the time of the squabble. Oates didn't like it.
Were they? I was just winging a theory out there, since the monument rules aren't something I've any knowledge of; when were they put in place?

It is worth noting that in the case of the 15th Alabama, there would have been a different - though less contentious - point of confusion, being as they swung wide around and over Round Top before coming down on Chamberlain's left wing on Little Round top, and arguably formed for battle in multiple locations.
I do try to be courteous and respond when I'm quoted. I'd be really happy if you didn't stroke anything of mine, it sounds kinda creepy.
Finally we agree on something! Though I think perhaps our identical need to reply to every little thing that comes our way might have led to more than a few otherwise avoidable confrontations; let's not prevaricate by trying to mask it as "courtesy".
 
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cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Right here.
Were they? I was just winging a theory out there, since the monument rules aren't something I've any knowledge of; when were they put in place?

It is worth noting that in the case of the 15th Alabama, there would have been a different - though less contentious - point of confusion, being as they swung wide around and over Round Top before coming down on Chamberlain's left wing on Little Round top, and arguably formed for battle in multiple locations.

The rules were put in place by the Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial Association in the 1880s.

https://npsgnmp.wordpress.com/2014/02/15/the-gettysburg-battlefield-memorial-association/

The rules state that the monument is to be placed at the spot where the unit first deployed in line of battle, which would probably put the 15th Alabama's monument somewhere around the Alabama Memorial.
 

IcarusPhoenix

Sergeant Major
Joined
May 22, 2011
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
The rules were put in place by the Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial Association in the 1880s.

https://npsgnmp.wordpress.com/2014/02/15/the-gettysburg-battlefield-memorial-association/

The rules state that the monument is to be placed at the spot where the unit first deployed in line of battle, which would probably put the 15th Alabama's monument somewhere around the Alabama Memorial.
Ah, much obliged. Yeah, in that case, the closest it'd be to Little Round Top would be way past the Wheat Field I suppose.
 
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ole

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Retired Moderator
Joined
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Location
Near Kankakee
Ah, much obliged. Yeah, in that case, the closest it'd be to Little Round Top would be way past the Wheat Field I suppose.
Oates was on big top and came down to chase some sharpshooters. Then there were those pesky yanks on top of the smaller hill.
 

IcarusPhoenix

Sergeant Major
Joined
May 22, 2011
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Oates was on big top and came down to chase some sharpshooters. Then there were those pesky yanks on top of the smaller hill.
"Pesky" indeed. I have to wonder how he felt when it was later revealed that some of the sharpshooters he'd already put to flight found refuge with a detachment of those same pesky bluecoats who gave his men a rather unpleasant shock when it came time to retreat.
 
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