Restricted Op-ed: Get rid of Stonewall monument

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cash

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In the western tradition, this is what Natural Rights advocates are always fighting against-Might makes right. I'll side with the rights, not the might!

Then you should side against the confederates who appealed to the cartridge box after they lost at the ballot box.
 

James B White

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Well, we have monuments and even whole museums dedicated to honoring thieves, many of whom weren't just alleged but were confessed and/or convicted. So the legality of someone's actions doesn't seem to be the strongest basis for who to memorialize.

e3b9ad2c-69a1-4866-918c-37a2c6075af1.jpg


Somehow, it's a subject I just can't get worked up over. People do what they want to do, and it changes over time. If they vote to put up a statue on public property, as long as it doesn't violate some more important Constitutional right, the majority rules, but there's no requirement that everyone has to agree with the majority. If they vote to take it down, same thing.
 

NedBaldwin

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Guilty (of treason) without a trial or conviction? That's unAmerican.

Brown was tried and convicted.
Longsteet?
Forrest?
Lee?
Early?
Joe Wheeler - who later served as a general in the US Army?

Um, no.
So let's hear a well reasoned non-pejorative laced paragraph or two in favor of tearing them down.

If you have difficulty with the word traitor, then I will go to the less legalistic and more descriptive phrase that he was a leader of enemy forces engaged in war against the United States of America and West Virginia.

The placement and style of the monument is central to the way I feel. Jackson was a man of historic significance and talent and I think there should be something to mark where he was born or a battle he fought or some other location where he played a significant role. In addition, if a statue like this is placed at a private site I wouldn't care. But the placement of a statue at the seat of government makes a statement about public values and I don't think Jackson represents an appropriate symbol of West Virginia. If I were a West Virginian I would want the State to memorialize at the seat of government individuals whose significance was in line with the vision, ideals and Constitution of West Virginia.
 

ole

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Im confused....its not ok to talk about secession but its ok to discuss indians? :help:
Talking of Indians is as off topic as talking of secession, but it is far less likely to send a thread spiralling off to the misty Never-Never land. Besides, the Indian statues bear some resemblance to the topic of eliminating a statue in a state few of us live in.
 

16thVA

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If I were a West Virginian I would want the State to memorialize at the seat of government individuals whose significance was in line with the vision, ideals and Constitution of West Virginia.

The Wheeling constitution was discarded by popular vote. In 1872 a new constitutional convention met in Charleston, chaired by Samuel Price, the former Lt. Gov of Virginia under the Confederacy. There were only 12 Republicans at the convention, nicknamed "The Twelve Apostles". Delegates also included former members of the Richmond Convention of 1861 who had signed the ordinance of secession, including Samuel Woods (who went to the WV Supreme Court later), Benjamin Wilson, who had been imprisoned by the Wheeling government, Logan Osburn, Alpheus Haymond (who would also go on to the WV Supreme Court), and Maj. Henry M. Mathews (CSA) who in a few years would become governor. Allen T. Caperton, not a member of the convention, would become the first ex-Confederate to be elected to the U.S. Senate. He was succeeded after his death by Samuel Price.
 

NedBaldwin

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The Wheeling constitution was discarded by popular vote. In 1872 a new constitutional convention met in Charleston, chaired by Samuel Price, the former Lt. Gov of Virginia under the Confederacy. There were only 12 Republicans at the convention, nicknamed "The Twelve Apostles". Delegates also included former members of the Richmond Convention of 1861 who had signed the ordinance of secession, including Samuel Woods (who went to the WV Supreme Court later), Benjamin Wilson, who had been imprisoned by the Wheeling government, Logan Osburn, Alpheus Haymond (who would also go on to the WV Supreme Court), and Maj. Henry M. Mathews (CSA) who in a few years would become governor. Allen T. Caperton, not a member of the convention, would become the first ex-Confederate to be elected to the U.S. Senate. He was succeeded after his death by Samuel Price.

So? I wasnt talking about the Wheeling constitution.
 

Baggage Handler #2

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If you have difficulty with the word traitor, then I will go to the less legalistic and more descriptive phrase that he was a leader of enemy forces engaged in war against the United States of America and West Virginia.

The placement and style of the monument is central to the way I feel. Jackson was a man of historic significance and talent and I think there should be something to mark where he was born or a battle he fought or some other location where he played a significant role. In addition, if a statue like this is placed at a private site I wouldn't care. But the placement of a statue at the seat of government makes a statement about public values and I don't think Jackson represents an appropriate symbol of West Virginia. If I were a West Virginian I would want the State to memorialize at the seat of government individuals whose significance was in line with the vision, ideals and Constitution of West Virginia.
This is a good post - much more compelling to me than the original editorial.
Thanks.
 

16thVA

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So? I wasnt talking about the Wheeling constitution.
This is the current constitution of West Virginia, the 1872 Constitution. The statue of Stonewall is totally in line with the Constitution of the state.

"In the bitter aftermath of the Civil War, ex-Confederates were initially denied key political rights, including the right to vote and to hold political office. They and their sympathizers, and even moderate opponents who thought that political penalization of former Rebels had become excessive, joined in 1870 in electing a Democratic-Conservative legislature and governor of West Virginia. This first non- Republican regime since statehood immediately set out to undo the ‘‘Yankee’’ constitution of 1863. The legislature on February 23, 1871, called for a referendum on a proposal to hold a new constitutional convention.
Generally opposed to anything that Republican Unionists had achieved, the advocates of change enunciated several specific objections to the Constitution of 1863. They attacked the lack of protection from political proscription such as the former Confederates suffered, the free public school system, the township system of government, a judicial scheme that strayed from familiar Virginia roots, the secret ballot, the role of ministers in public office, and the alleged high cost of government.
The close results of the convention referendum and the later ratification of the new constitution reflected the acrimonious split that characterized state politics at the time. In August 1871, the convention proposal carried by 2,562 votes, 30,220 to 27,658. The result of the delegate election on October 26, 1871, was more extreme, as 66 of the 78 delegates were Democrats. The minority of 11 Republicans and one Unionist Democrat became known as the Twelve Apostles, whose hard task was to maintain the statemakers’ faith against heavy odds.
Meeting in a converted Methodist church in Charleston on January 16, 1872, the convention lasted for 84 days before pointedly adjourning on April 9, 1872, the anniversary of Gen. Robert E. Lee’s surrender."

http://www.wvencyclopedia.org/articles/1570
 

Nathanb1

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Talking of Indians is as off topic as talking of secession, but it is far less likely to send a thread spiralling off to the misty Never-Never land. Besides, the Indian statues bear some resemblance to the topic of eliminating a statue in a state few of us live in.

Ah.....I see you've read the entire thing. Yes, spiraling wayyyyy off into secession land is not the goal here.....discussing the validity of a statue is.

And Ned, that post you wrote is quite convincing. Perhaps Mr. Swint (or whatever his name is) could take a few lessons from you. (Not that I agree, but it's darned good)
 

Nathanb1

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This is the current constitution of West Virginia, the 1872 Constitution. The statue of Stonewall is totally in line with the Constitution of the state.

"In the bitter aftermath of the Civil War, ex-Confederates were initially denied key political rights, including the right to vote and to hold political office. They and their sympathizers, and even moderate opponents who thought that political penalization of former Rebels had become excessive, joined in 1870 in electing a Democratic-Conservative legislature and governor of West Virginia. This first non- Republican regime since statehood immediately set out to undo the ‘‘Yankee’’ constitution of 1863. The legislature on February 23, 1871, called for a referendum on a proposal to hold a new constitutional convention.
Generally opposed to anything that Republican Unionists had achieved, the advocates of change enunciated several specific objections to the Constitution of 1863. They attacked the lack of protection from political proscription such as the former Confederates suffered, the free public school system, the township system of government, a judicial scheme that strayed from familiar Virginia roots, the secret ballot, the role of ministers in public office, and the alleged high cost of government.
The close results of the convention referendum and the later ratification of the new constitution reflected the acrimonious split that characterized state politics at the time. In August 1871, the convention proposal carried by 2,562 votes, 30,220 to 27,658. The result of the delegate election on October 26, 1871, was more extreme, as 66 of the 78 delegates were Democrats. The minority of 11 Republicans and one Unionist Democrat became known as the Twelve Apostles, whose hard task was to maintain the statemakers’ faith against heavy odds.
Meeting in a converted Methodist church in Charleston on January 16, 1872, the convention lasted for 84 days before pointedly adjourning on April 9, 1872, the anniversary of Gen. Robert E. Lee’s surrender."

http://www.wvencyclopedia.org/articles/1570

Nice post. I now know more about West Virginia than I ever wanted to. :smile: Seriously, it does put things in context, doesn't it?
 

unionblue

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Op-ed from May, 2011. The views expressed in this opinion piece do not necessarily reflect the views of the poster. I called the Gazette a few minutes ago and talked to Cathy who advised me the monument is still in place on the capitol grounds.

May 28, 2011
Howard Swint: W.Va. Capitol no place for Confederate memorial

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I'll bet real money, that in spite of Howard Swint's Op-Ed piece, the Jackson monument is still there.

Any takers? :smile:

Seriously,
Unionblue
 

NedBaldwin

Major
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Location
California
This is the current constitution of West Virginia, the 1872 Constitution. The statue of Stonewall is totally in line with the Constitution of the state.
Not at all.

Article 1, section 1 of the West Virginia Constitution reads" The State of West Virginia is, and. shall remain, one of the United States of America. The Constitution of the United States of America, and the laws and treaties made in pursuance thereof, shall be the supreme law of the land."

A general of the armed forces of the Confederate States of America who fought to separate Virginia, which at the time included West Virginia, from the United States of America is not in line with that section.


I clipped away all the stuff you quoted about the politics of 1872 since its not relevant to my point. But it is interesting if you go to the link you gave and read the part that comes after what you quoted, the part you left off:
"Despite the rhetoric, convention measures did not reach the revolutionary extremes some expected. Former Confederates often vented their anger in nasty debate about whether to place the U.S. flag in the hall, Bill of Rights content, African-American voting and office-holding, and the free public school system. The influence of moderate former Confederates, the desire for northern investment, and the fear of operation of the 14th and 15th amendments to the U.S. Constitution tempered results. In the end, the right of blacks to vote and to seek public office remained. The free public school system survived intact and segregated. A fortress bill of rights maintained the supremacy of individual civil rights in peace and war. Oral voting was an option to the ballot. The convention resurrected the county court, created a new judicial system, returned to limited biennial legislative sessions, lengthened executive terms, and maintained a weak governorship.
On August 22, 1872, the electorate ratified the new constitution by a vote of 42,344 to 37,777. At the same election, the voters rejected a separate controversial convention proposition that would have restricted office-holding to whites."

I dont think this helps your point.
 

NedBaldwin

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Location
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Ah.....I see you've read the entire thing. Yes, spiraling wayyyyy off into secession land is not the goal here.....discussing the validity of a statue is.

And Ned, that post you wrote is quite convincing. Perhaps Mr. Swint (or whatever his name is) could take a few lessons from you. (Not that I agree, but it's darned good)

Thank you. That is kind of you.
 

16thVA

First Sergeant
Joined
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Location
Philadelphia
Ned, just admit that you were wrong. The Wheeling Constitution was destroyed because it was forced upon West Virginians without their consent. The 1872 Constitution, which is the current constitution of the state, was brought into being because tens of thousands of West Virginians had become political prisoners in their own state. And when they finally got the vote back they put in place people like Samuel Price, Henry Mathews and Samuel Woods to give them an instrument of government they felt was their own. And this is the reason why Stonewall's statue is "in line with the vision, ideals and Constitution of West Virginia." Those men were his compatriots and some served under him.

The contents of the Constitution are not my concern, but the motivation in creating it speaks volumes about how West Virginians felt. The very fact that they were able to create it speaks volumes. It would take an earthquake to move that statue.

Nice post. I now know more about West Virginia than I ever wanted to. :smile: Seriously, it does put things in context, doesn't it?

Thanks, most of my friends think they know too much about West Virginia too, so I understand your sentiment.:geek:
 
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