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leftyhunter

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You are mistaken. An American president is bound by a federal court's decision. He may appeal, but this is how it works. He doesn't get to ignore the Court once a decision is rendered.

Oh, except Lincoln.
Can you please cite a specific US Supreme Court case or cases that President Lincoln deliberately ignored. Didn't President Jackson state in regards to a US Supreme Court decision regarding the removal of the Cherokee Indians something to the effect " it's their decision let them enforce it". Maybe @jgoodguy knows of that case.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

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All three branches of government are equal.

Politics decides if a President can oppose a court's decision.

We must not forget the Supreme Court Justices are men and not moral Gods. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and supreme power of writ over all branches of government by the Supreme Court would be too much for the nation.

The constitution isn't designed to allow 6 or 9 justices to have the final and only determination as to what the "law of the land will be."
If the supreme court had power of writ over executive powers and congress, then the nation would be a dictatorial system of government ruled by only 6 or 9 men that were Kings for Life.

That is why the power of writ is held by the lower courts, and basically only the Supreme Court has the power of review. It is not unconstitutional for the President and Congress to decide what the law of the land will be without the Supreme Court blessing.

Lincoln opponents always criticize him as being an abuser of executive power, but never seem to acknowledge that the power of writ over the executive branch wouldn't be an abuse of power by the Supreme Court.
There was a US Supreme Court decision cited by @SWMODave years ago where the Supreme Court ordered a captured rebel in Missouri released. I forgot the case in question. Maybe @jgoodguy knows of the case.
Leftyhunter
 
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John S. Carter

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Lincoln himself, seemed mystified by Va.'s secession. He noted that there seemed a solid majority against secession on one day and almost a day later voted overwhelmingly voted for it.

It would seem from their words, that Va. would not defend their right to own slaves, but would send their sons out to defend the right of other states to do so?
Could you support that statement as to Va.sending its sons to support other states?.Lincoln counted on Whigs in the South to hold the South in the Union,he miscalculated on the underneath hostility towards the abolishist and political against the Southern life and slavery.The South had threatened to succeed for so long over many causes that the North also took it for granted that it would ever happen but with the rise of the Republican party which would offer direct attacks on them the South now realized that the dare would have to be fulfilled , then they thought that just perhaps one last minute reprisal would be offered or they were in Chivalry thought that they were honor bound to finally throw the gauntlet, down and presede with the duel ,the Romantic Scottish tales which they had heard as children,the South to play the knight off to defend the castle,or Robert de Bruce to gain Scotland' freedom from the evil English.Rember that a lot of Scots settle in Virginia so these Virginians were defending their homeland and freedom as did those of Scotland and then against of the Revolution.Freedom from an intolerable government which they knew threaten to interfere with their rights and liberties regarding their property.Remember why Lee left to return home what he gave for his reason as so many Southern boys would state in letters back home.
 
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Kelly

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Per what contemporary case law of the mid Nineteenth Century?

Leftyhunter
Please show me the provision in Article II granting the power to the president to suspend habeas corpus. I'll be happy to show you the relevant case law after you do this
 

Kelly

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It certainly adjudicated the right of violent Secession which is what occurred in the ACW. At no time did the Confederacy seek the protection of the federal courts one did the Secessionists seek congressional approval for Secession.
Leftyhunter
Edited; personal remarks

Texas most certainly did not adjudicate the constitutional right of secession.
A declaration of neutrality is not recognition of a sovereign state.

All of the British consuls being ordered out of the Confederacy when England would NOT recognize the Confederacy as Sovereign? As a nation?

Edited; personal remarks

A declaration of neutrality is not a law requiring diplomatic recognition as a function of political independence.
 
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Kelly

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How was slavery prior to the 13th Amendment a " criminal enterprise"? The US Constitution specifically authorized slavery and slavery was also supported by case law such has the Sanford case.
Leftyhunter

Indeed. Slavery was perfectly legal in the US just as it was in the CS.
 

leftyhunter

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Please show me the provision in Article II granting the power to the president to suspend habeas corpus. I'll be happy to show you the relevant case law after you do this
A President has the right to suppress a rebellion. If the courts had a problem with Lincoln suspending habeas corpus then we should have case law about that.There is on case where a Missouri Rebel was released based on illegal detainment and it might of been a US Circuit Court not the Supreme Court. Other then that case which hopefully someone can cite I am not aware of any case law that stated Lincoln violated any constitutional rights. Of course you can cite case law to prove differently.
Leftyhunter
 

WJC

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Really? Why did he ride secretly through Baltimore on his way to DC from Illinois?
Because of reports that southern sympathizers might attempt to do him harm. It had nothing to do with the Pratt Street incident that happened on April 19, 1861, a month and a half after Lincoln's inauguration.
 
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Kelly

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What international law, rule or standard in use in 1861 prove that the US did recognize the CSA?

Things was not as black or white as you try to make them.
International laws covering this area was not that clear and much of it came down to how the European naval powers reacted to the blockade.

Both the union and the European powers got around the whole issue by accepting the CSA as belligerent, but not as an independent and sovereign state.

That is why csa soldiers was treated as POWs and not criminals and why captures csa sailors was treated as POWs and not simply hung as pirates.

So no the US did never recognized the CSA...

Edited; personal remarks.

Yes, the European powers recognized the CSA as a belligerent. And yes, by blockading, rather than closing the ports in the CSA, Lincoln overtly extended de facto political recognition of the CSA. So yes, the US clearly recognized the CSA.
 
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Kelly

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A President has the right to suppress a rebellion. If the courts had a problem with Lincoln suspending habeas corpus then we should have case law about that.There is on case where a Missouri Rebel was released based on illegal detainment and it might of been a US Circuit Court not the Supreme Court. Other then that case which hopefully someone can cite I am not aware of any case law that stated Lincoln violated any constitutional rights. Of course you can cite case law to prove differently.
Leftyhunter

A president may only exercise the powers granted under Article II and the veto promulgated under Article I. Please show me where the president was granted the right to suspend habeas corpus. It is a horrifying idea to give that authority to a single individual. In fact, it is a power denied to Kings. It is absurd to think that the framers set up a dictatorship.
 
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Kelly

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The president was not authorized to suspend the right of habeas corpus "unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." Article I, Section 9.

Article I, section 9. The article granting powers to Congress. Now show me that authority under Article II, which grants authority to the President.
 

16thVA

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I figured the issue of West Virginia would emerge here. West Virginia did not "secede" from Virginia, that implies a willing action by the populace, which is not supported by the voting taken on the issue. West Virginia was created by a junta that was supported by the Union army, it was done mostly on paper in Wheeling and Washington. Half of the counties had voted for the ordinance of secession from the U.S., and less than 19,000 voters approved the statehood ordinance in a voting population of nearly 80,000. An enormous number of civilians were arrested by the junta government in Wheeling, which triggered protests from the US Judge-Advocate Joseph Holt in 1863. Capt. Henry Lazelle (U.S.), inspected Camp Chase in 1862 and reported to Col. Hoffman about Wheeling's Joseph Darr, who was responsible for civilian arrests under the direction of Gov. Pierpont-


"He is very zealous ; perhaps too hasty and arbitrary. I have much to communicate to you of him and of the prisoners sent here by him. I have the official records of a number of prisoners sent here by him, seven of which state that the prisoner is charged with "doing nothing." One was taken from the almshouse where he had been nine years; another was a lunatic when arrested and is charged with being a lunatic. Many others have been sent here under equally slight
charges whose cases I will soon submit to you, at least copies of their official records as transmitted by him to Camp Chase, for I believe that it cannot be your desire that this camp should be filled to overflowing with political prisoners (made by half depopulating a section of country where the inhabitants are often compelled to expressions of apparent
sympathy
) arrested on frivolous charges, to be supported by the General Government and endure a long confinement. I have not expressed to him, however, a shade of any opinion upon this matter, or under any circumstances to others upon similar matters where there
has been the possibility of doubt as to your action." OR, Series II, Vol. IV, pg. 196
 
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WJC

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Article I, section 9. The article granting powers to Congress. Now show me that authority under Article II, which grants authority to the President.
Thanks for your response.
Correct, as the Federal Circuit Court for Maryland ruled.
Lincoln acted in an emergency under Article II, Section 2. Congress subsequently authorized his action by passing the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act.
 

Kelly

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Thanks for your response.
Correct, as the Federal Circuit Court for Maryland ruled.
Lincoln acted in an emergency under Article II, Section 2. Congress subsequently authorized his action by passing the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act.

Emergency? Can you please show me where, under Article II, section 2 , the President is empowered to suspend habeas corpus under an emergency. I don't see it anywhere.
 

Greywolf

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Could you support that statement as to Va.sending its sons to support other states?.Lincoln counted on Whigs in the South to hold the South in the Union,he miscalculated on the underneath hostility towards the abolishist and political against the Southern life and slavery.The South had threatened to succeed for so long over many causes that the North also took it for granted that it would ever happen but with the rise of the Republican party which would offer direct attacks on them the South now realized that the dare would have to be fulfilled , then they thought that just perhaps one last minute reprisal would be offered or they were in Chivalry thought that they were honor bound to finally throw the gauntlet, down and presede with the duel ,the Romantic Scottish tales which they had heard as children,the South to play the knight off to defend the castle,or Robert de Bruce to gain Scotland' freedom from the evil English.Rember that a lot of Scots settle in Virginia so these Virginians were defending their homeland and freedom as did those of Scotland and then against of the Revolution.Freedom from an intolerable government which they knew threaten to interfere with their rights and liberties regarding their property.Remember why Lee left to return home what he gave for his reason as so many Southern boys would state in letters back home.
Jamestown and much of Virginia was settled by English. In fact there was a thread on here recently, by Pat I think, with charts showing how few Scots-Irish, Irish, and Scots settled in the south.
 
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jgoodguy

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I figured the issue of West Virginia would emerge here. West Virginia did not "secede" from Virginia, that implies a willing action by the populace, which is not supported by the voting taken on the issue. West Virginia was created by a junta that was supported by the Union army, it was done mostly on paper in Wheeling and Washington. Half of the counties had voted for the ordinance of secession from the U.S., and less than 19,000 voters approved the statehood ordinance in a voting population of nearly 80,000. An enormous number of civilians were arrested by the junta government in Wheeling, which triggered protests from the US Judge-Advocate Joseph Holt in 1863. Capt. Henry Lazelle (U.S.), inspected Camp Chase in 1862 and reported to Col. Hoffman about Wheeling's Joseph Darr, who was responsible for civilian arrests under the direction of Gov. Pierpont-


"He is very zealous ; perhaps too hasty and arbitrary. I have much to communicate to you of him and of the prisoners sent here by him. I have the official records of a number of prisoners sent here by him, seven of which state that the prisoner is charged with "doing nothing." One was taken from the almshouse where he had been nine years; another was a lunatic when arrested and is charged with being a lunatic. Many others have been sent here under equally slight
charges whose cases I will soon submit to you, at least copies of their official records as transmitted by him to Camp Chase, for I believe that it cannot be your desire that this camp should be filled to overflowing with political prisoners (made by half depopulating a section of country where the inhabitants are often compelled to expressions of apparent
sympathy
) arrested on frivolous charges, to be supported by the General Government and endure a long confinement. I have not expressed to him, however, a shade of any opinion upon this matter, or under any circumstances to others upon similar matters where there
has been the possibility of doubt as to your action." OR, Series II, Vol. IV, pg. 196
What is the official percentage of population required for a condition of secession?
 
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