Oops, big lump of your posts....

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WJC

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Foreign recognition has nothing to do with the existence of a state. States recognize one anther out of interest, not out of any legal obligation. There is no law requiring one state to recognize any other state. it is purely voluntary and agin, has no bearing on the question of political independence. None whatsoever.
Except that it does. Until someone 'invites you into the club'. you're not a member.
 

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ebg12

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"
Foreign recognition has nothing to do with the existence of a state. States recognize one anther out of interest, not out of any legal obligation. There is no law requiring one state to recognize any other state. it is purely voluntary and agin, has no bearing on the question of political independence. None whatsoever.
but participation in world affairs depends on the recognition of other countries.
 

Kelly

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Except that it doesn't, and there is no "club". Only independent nations who recognize each other on a purely voluntary basis. Or, in the alnternative, please show me the 1860 source of law which requires states to recognize each other. Thank you.

PS- Who was the superintending authority which set the rule of recognition.
 

Irishtom29

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Sovereignty depends on the size of recognizing nations? A bunch of small ones or one big one?
It depends, it’s not a binary choice between your options. But the would be the nation must still establish its physical independence. As I recall in our rebellion against Britain we were recognized by France, Spain and Holland but it was their military help that mattered. Had our rebellion been recognized by them but crushed by Britain recognition wouldn’t have mattered.

Perhaps more than recognition making you a nation, in the modern sense, the lack of it means you aren’t one. Maybe. In any event the southern rebellion established itself as a power, for awhile, but failed to establish itself as a nation.
 

WJC

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Sympathy or not, the constitution does not prohibit secession. The cause of the U.S. would have been exposed for the enormous illegality that it was.
You might want to read through the several threads on the legality or Constitutionality of secession before taking on that argument here. Then, if you still want to discuss it, pick one of those threads and enjoy!
 

ebg12

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Except that it doesn't, and there is no "club". Only independent nations who recognize each other on a purely voluntary basis. Or, in the alnternative, please show me the 1860 source of law which requires states to recognize each other. Thank you.
but how can we apply a law to those that aren't recognized by the law?
 

Kelly

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You might want to read through the several threads on the legality or Constitutionality of secession before taking on that argument here. Then, if you still want to discuss it, pick one of those threads and enjoy!

Thanks! In the meantime, please show me where the Constitution outlaws secession. Thanks again.
 

O' Be Joyful

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The southerners talked of our tendencies to make money- and bring down wooden clocks. One man said to me down there “you make wooden nutmegs”. “Well” I said, “on the question of wooden nutmegs I shall have to remain silent, but I would rather come from that part of the country where the people make wooden nutmegs than to come from that part of the country where the people are fools enough to buy them.”
:smile: :wink:
 

jgoodguy

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Thanks! In the meantime, please show me where the Constitution outlaws secession. Thanks again.
That is really simple.
  1. The Constitution is the law of the land.
  2. Anything that is outside of the Constitution is outside of the law.
  3. Secession is not in the Constitution.
  4. Therefore secession is outside of the law.
  5. Therefore secession is outlawry.
 

ebg12

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That is really simple.
  1. The Constitution is the law of the land.
  2. Anything that is outside of the Constitution is outside of the law.
  3. Secession is not in the Constitution.
  4. Therefore secession is outside of the law.
  5. Therefore secession is outlawry.
objection...asked to draw a conclusion.
 
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WJC

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Except that it doesn't, and there is no "club". Only independent nations who recognize each other on a purely voluntary basis. Or, in the alnternative, please show me the 1860 source of law which requires states to recognize each other. Thank you.

PS- Who was the superintending authority which set the rule of recognition.
Thanks for your response.
Would you prefer 'community of nations'? instead of the club analogy? The point is one cannot simply declare oneself a 'nation' and expect it to stand unless other nations agree.
History is filled with examples of people who 'declared' their island or other little piece of the world to be a nation, some issuing stamps and coining money. But since no other country recognized their independence they are just quaint footnotes. For example, search Martin Harman, King of Lundy.
 

Kelly

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Thanks for your response.
Would you prefer 'community of nations'? instead of the club analogy? The point is one cannot simply declare oneself a 'nation' and expect it to stand unless other nations agree.
History is filled with examples of people who 'declared' their island or other little piece of the world to be a nation, some issuing stamps and coining money. But since no other country recognized their independence they are just quaint footnotes. For example, search Martin Harman, King of Lundy.

It's funny, because Lincoln himself declared a blockade against the CSA, thereby giving immediate de facto recognition. Which is quite different from diplomatic recognition. So yes, Lincoln most certainly recognized the CSA. But please, do show me the 19th century source which supports your claim that diplomatic recognition is required for political independence. I'd really love to see it.
 

WJC

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Fine. Then show me the law which says you must have a law. And just to be clear, there was no law which required Spain to recognize Russia. Purely voluntary.
Of course it is voluntary. A country has to have a reason to recognize to recognize another country as legitimate. No one had sufficient reason to recognize the so-called 'Confederate States of America'.
Now had the war ended in a U. S. loss, things would have been different....
 

CSA Today

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I have not seen an apology from anyone about killing out all the Indians.
The Indians were never a large enough minority to be a political asset to American politicians during the 19th century. They were a nuisance in the way of the US government's imperialistic westward movement from sea to shining sea.
 

Kelly

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Of course it is voluntary. A country has to have a reason to recognize to recognize another country as legitimate. No one had sufficient reason to recognize the so-called 'Confederate States of America'.
Now had the war ended in a U. S. loss, things would have been different....

So in the end, you are left with might makes right. The plea of every ruthless political-military mass-murder that ever walked the earth.
 
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